GOD: An Autobiography, As Told to a Philosopher - The Podcast

68. What’s On Our Mind- Listening To God

March 31, 2022 Jerry L. Martin, Scott Langdon
GOD: An Autobiography, As Told to a Philosopher - The Podcast
68. What’s On Our Mind- Listening To God
Show Notes Transcript

How anthropomorphic is God? Jerry talks about the first thing God ever said to him- "Listen!"

What does it mean to listen to God?

An insightful conversation between Jerry and Scott about their personal spiritual experiences while recapping points from the most recent series, including dialogues, and responses from readers and listeners.

Read God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher.

Begin the dramatic adaptation of God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher

Related Episodes:
[Two Philosophers Wrestle With God] Purpose [Part 1] [Part 2]; [What's On Your Mind] Is God Hiding? 

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Scott Langdon [00:00:17] This is God: An Autobiography, The Podcast. A dramatic adaptation and continuing discussion of the book God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher by Jerry L. Martin. He was a lifelong agnostic, but one day he had an occasion to pray. To his vast surprise, God answered- in words. Being a philosopher, he had a lot of questions, and God had a lot to tell him. Episode 68. 

Scott Langdon [00:01:02] Welcome to Episode 68 of God: An Autobiography, The Podcast and another edition of What's On Our Minds. I'm Scott Langdon. In this week's episode, Jerry and I talk about the ideas and questions brought to light during the last three episodes of the podcast, referencing episodes 65 and 66, and Episode 67, last week's third edition of What's On Your Mind. Jerry and I discuss our spiritual lives and our own encounters with God. If you have a question, comment, or a story of your own about an encounter with God or a spiritual experience, please drop us an email to questions@godanautobiography.com. Thanks for spending this time with us. I hope you enjoy the episode.

Scott Langdon [00:02:03] Jerry. Welcome back, episode 68, What's On Our Minds? This is the third time we're doing this. I'm really excited to get back to it. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:02:11] Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:02:11] The last time we talked, episode 67, we asked folks, what's on your mind? That was the third time we did that. And we've got some new emails, folks writing in, sharing their new experiences. We've also kind of we dug into the mailbag a little bit and talked about some emails that you had received prior, you know, Jenny and Joe coming with their experiences. And it was a really great time and a lot to talk about, I thought.

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:02:37] Yes, it was. These are very fascinating. Everybody's spiritual journey is a kind of high drama, actually. Including the bad moments, including the bad moments, because that's part of the spiritual journey. So, these are fascinating. 

Scott Langdon [00:02:52] Yeah. Love reading them. And, so if you're listening and you would like to share your experience with God or have questions about that, do email us at questions at godanautobiography.com. We also decided not just to have an episode where we go through the mailbag, what's on your mind, but then also kind of follow it up with what we're doing right now, which is what's on our minds. And that's where you and I are talking about some of the things that, you know, kind of based on the last three episodes have come into our minds about, oh, you know, this is-- this was an interesting conversation. And maybe it's sparked a different thought process or a different way of looking at something or just another question. And I know I had a few. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:03:34] You and I have our own spiritual journey, Scott, that continues. You know, my main job was to put out God: An Autobiography and then we did podcasts and so forth, responding to emails. But our spiritual journeys are ongoing and our intellectual journeys too, which involves, you know, how to make sense of the big picture, you might say. 

Scott Langdon [00:03:56] Right. Yeah, exactly. Well, I want to refer back just a couple episodes ago. We have been doing a series where we are talking-- we are breaking down the dialogues that you had with Dr. Richard Oxenberg. And in the third of our series, parts one and part two of that third dialogue, those are episodes 65 and 66. And going back over them and listening to them again, I always, whenever I do that, go back and listen to one of our episodes, I always seem to be able to come out of it with a new idea that I hadn't even thought about. And I put them together, you know, and you and I went back and forth with them. And yet I still upon listening, something new comes to me. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:04:38] And Richard, of course, was bringing up things that I had not thought about. He's a very careful reader of the book. But there were things he picked up on and articulated exceptionally well that had not registered so much with me. So, you know, it's all a discovery, after all. It's all a discovery.

Scott Langdon [00:04:58] Right. Which I find extremely fascinating because God talks to you and He says, you know, tell My story and you're to be a reporter of what I say. And--.

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:05:09] Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:05:10] Write down what I'm saying. And I remember, you know, reading the book and going through it, and as we adapted it, and the conversations you and I had about this idea that there was a time when you ask God, you know, how can I get into your head? And God's like, you're not supposed to get into my head.

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:05:27] Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:05:27] You just be a serious reporter of what I tell you. And you said, okay, all right, I can do that part. I can do that. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:05:32] Yes, yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:05:32] And so we come back again, I think, to the theme of the whole book, if there were one word for it, would be to listen. Right? 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:05:40] Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:05:40] So, God, again, it's not what do You want me to do, don't-- Just listen and let Me talk. Right? 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:05:46] Yes. Yes. Settle, settle down. 

Scott Langdon [00:05:50] And I feel that in my life so much because I feel like if I can just articulate the right way and I can just say this the right-- and then next thing I know, I'm just talking, talking, talking. And this notion of just that one simple word, listen, enters my life often. Now I find that a big part of the grace of God is just the recognition of listen. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:06:16] Yes, exactly. And there are many ways God communicates and some is just through meditative silence. You know, it doesn't have to be voices or urges or nudges or something put in your path. It can be just things that come to you in silent moments. 

Scott Langdon [00:06:33] Well, one of the things Richard brings up in episode 65, part one of your third dialogue with him, he talks about something that you and I struggled with when we were putting these episodes together, and I know you struggled with it deeply when you were writing the book, when God says to you- get more anthropomorphic. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:06:51] I was shocked. Shocked. 

Scott Langdon [00:06:52] It has to be one of the most shocking things He says to you. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:06:55] Yes, yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:06:56] To, you know, and as a philosopher and as a deep thinker and as somebody-- and I know this too, having come through a tradition of faith where it's a very you know, what we think of it as very literal, and I'm going to put a pin in that for now, because I want to come back to that literal part in a second, but the idea of, you know, this get more literal, almost. Get more like a human. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:07:19] Yes. Yes.

Scott Langdon [00:07:20] Man, and we want to be like, oh, we want to drop our humanity and get away from our humanity farther along, we'll know all about it. Those kind of lyrics where we drop the body and where-- and God is saying- no, no, no, go back to that. That's really an interesting and shocking statement. Yeah, for sure. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:07:35] Yeah. And part of it is that the high theologies, all, everything becomes metaphor and symbol. You know, and now I'm forgetting the name of the great medieval thinker, but anyway, he actually lays out God doesn't really love us because love is an affect and God can't have affects, you know, and so God doesn't really love us. But this is Anselm, Anselm. The Great Anselm of Canterbury, who defined theology as faith seeking understanding. God doesn't really love us, but luckily to us it feels like love. Well, if Abigail said, I don't love you, but luckily to you, it feels like love. I would be very disappointed, you know? 

Scott Langdon [00:08:23] Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:08:23] But anyway, that's just part of the story of getting more anthropomorphic, which is to relate to our humanity. I think you're right about that, Scott. And, you know, if we're made in the image of God, then that must be that God has something, you know, we have the form of God. God in some ways has the form that we have, that we share a certain form. And so, it's appropriate not to talk about God walking around on two legs, you know, the Greek myths, that kind of thing. But to take God's love, God's desires, God's purpose, God's interaction, to take all of that seriously, even if it's indirect and faint and so forth, but take it all in its own terms, don't retranslate it into something more abstract. 

Scott Langdon [00:09:20] Right. Richard talks about it additionally as the participatory nature of God. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:09:29] Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:09:31] He's looking at this part of the discussion, I think, as how God talks to you about how God participates in humanity. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:09:40] Yes. Yes. And the, we are part of God's development, God is part of our, that interaction is a mutual recognition is, God says at one point, at the heart of My being, or language of that sort. At the heart of My being, and that was puzzling to me. But yeah, we have to take it in. And that, oddly enough, helps God too. So, this interaction, this joint action in the world, you know, what we do is not just us, it's done in partnership with the divine. Whether we notice it or not, it's in partnership with the divine. And, well, it's kind of helpful if you do notice it. 

Scott Langdon [00:10:26] Yeah. Well, I remember there is a section where you ask God very plainly, "What are we to you?" 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:10:35] Yes. Yes.

Scott Langdon [00:10:36] And God answers by saying, "You are My face unto the world."

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:10:42] Yes. Yes.

Scott Langdon [00:10:43] And I have thought-- that was a statement that I thought was interesting and bold, but not new to me. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:10:52] Okay. 

Scott Langdon [00:10:52] And the reason that it didn't shock me as not new is that in the tradition of faith I grew up in it, we would say things like that. Like we are to be like the hands of God. But with the word like in there. We want to say it and we see it, it's in the scriptures everywhere. You know, Paul talks about it, but Jesus even talks about it. How do you-- when you see the least of these, you are seeing me. When you help the least of these, you are helping me. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:11:22] Yes. Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:11:23] And but He never says when you see these and you help the poor, it is like you are helping Me. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:11:30] Right. 

Scott Langdon [00:11:31] You are helping Me. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:11:32] It's direct language. 

Scott Langdon [00:11:35] Yes. And I think we-- The way I have seen it unfold, in my experience, seems to be that we look at it as it's like that. It's sort of like that. For example, you, one might, you know, you hear love your neighbor as yourself. Well, if I'm thinking about myself as Scott Langdon, I don't really like myself very much enough. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:11:57] No, we don't love ourselves very well. 

Scott Langdon [00:12:01] Right? So why would I want to treat this other person the way I often look at myself? 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:12:06] As badly as you treat yourself.

Scott Langdon [00:12:07] Yeah. It doesn't make-- that doesn't make sense to see it that way for me anymore, because I just thought that just doesn't make sense, I don't like myself. So what am I thinking? Is it-- when I think of the Self with a capital s, say, God the animating--

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:12:20] That larger Self. 

Scott Langdon [00:12:20] Behind us all, the larger Self. When I'm thinking, love your neighbor as God. So then I think about it very literally, then. What if literally everything I see, but specifically, let's talk about humanity, every human I encounter, whether it's my wife, my son, my daughter, or the person at the convenience store, you know, at the Wawa, behind the counter, that everyone I see is God playing a role. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:12:48] Right. Right. 

Scott Langdon [00:12:50] In a sense, you know, so then I am in a sense, the agency through which God is seeing other. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:12:57] Yes. And they are an agency through which God is seeing you. 

Scott Langdon [00:13:04] Yeah. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:13:04] And interacting with you, and you with them. Because that's a level at which God kind of needs help. Right? He can't shop at Wawa and have an interaction, can't help somebody with their flat tire, you know, these kind of- the work of life. And the deep webbing of meaning in life that comes from all of these particular interactions. And we are God in action in those cases. 

Scott Langdon [00:13:38] Yes. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:13:39] Part of the nature of the world, the world's a harsh place and there's a lot of work to be done. I'm told this is not just a play, play acting. Some traditions start sounding like that at certain points- this world doesn't matter. In some Christianity, it sounds like this life doesn't matter. We're just waiting to move on to some other life that's going to be more perfect or something. No, it's an imperfect world, we're born into it, God is right there in it with us and is, in some deep sense, is it also- is that imperfect world. And there's all kinds of work to be done, and part of it is just helping one another. I mentioned flat tires, but they're also human tragedies. And, you know, to kind of be present to each other in those and God is present in those, and it's such a challenge to us to have some sense that God is present in those, especially in the moments of intense suffering and when you feel most abandoned. Well, you may feel abandoned by God, maybe your next door neighbor or your closest kin can be present to you, and you can feel the divine through that. And so that's part of what we give to one another, is that kind of presence that also is an instrument of God's presence. 

Scott Langdon [00:15:30] When you and Richard are speaking about this idea, Richard talks about the idea that God suffers because we suffer. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:15:44] Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:15:44] And also, we suffer because God suffers. That there's this mutual development and we see throughout the course of history as mankind, humankind has developed, and that's one of the huge themes throughout this book, the thread of the theme throughout this book, when God will say, I saw this, ot this occurred during this time and I had developed in that place. That is-- that was a big development place. And He mentions to you a couple of times, He says, take a look at certain points that seem really important, and they most likely are. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:16:26] The big moments. 

Scott Langdon [00:16:27] Right? That they might seem like big moments. And that's probably because they actually are. And we recognize them as such as a collective humanity. We can see these points, for example, maybe the invention of the printing press. We see how that moment really changed the course of how we know things and how we-- and so so we talk about these--

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:16:50] But, for the spiritual life of mankind, is much more often quiet moments that go almost unnoticed at the time. I mean, it's striking that the Roman historians were aware of Jesus, but he's a very minor character. In their brief mentions, John the Baptist was a big character and gets more press in the historian. So that--the world was noticing John the Baptist, and meanwhile there was Jesus, and people, individuals were noticing Jesus, and the Roman authorities were noticing Jesus. But he was just another troublemaker from that point. But anyway, you know, the opponents, the ancient Hindu seers and, you know, Buddha, who knows if the world was recording the four Noble Truths at the time. You know, this was a local event at the time. But these are important spiritual moments in divine disclosure and divine-human-development. You have to hyphenate it divine-human-development. 

Scott Langdon [00:17:53] We-- God talks about why now in terms of the revelation to you and talks about this New Axial Age and you and Richard talk about that and what that might mean. And you referred to the mention of the original notion of this axial age?

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:18:14] Karl Jaspers, the great philosopher who, in his philosophy of history, noticed that there was this period, you might put it around 500 B.C., but it's really several hundred years earlier and several hundred years later. But it's a general period in ancient history when the various emerges, excuse me, the various religions and the great philosophers and certain other prophetic types emerged, country after country, all the way from the, you know, the East Coast, coast of Asia to the Mediterranean. And religion became quite different after that time from what it had become-- what it had been before. It was much more a matter of the priestly classes and a kind of hierarchical system a little bit static, rather mythological. And suddenly there is a reflective level and a kind of prophetic revisioning level that went on and sometimes causing disruption, of course. Why wouldn't it? But it elevated human consciousness in a dramatic way. And of course, that's part of God, you know, from God. But God would be noticing this with some surprise. Whoa. They're really picking up on something here, and God would be learning from it also. Oh, this Socrates comes around, and is questioning everybody and saying, "Look, we've got to find the truth." You don't want to pursue some fake truths. We got to find the real truth. And the Buddha and the writers of the Upanishads in India and so forth. And God would be so, whoa, this is amazing! And He says at one point about the Chinese where they discover the divine as a kind of cosmic harmony. That God said, "Well, yes, I notice I am kind of cosmic harmony, and I slightly, you know, am talking about it as like it's two guys on the street. But it was a discovery for God, and God sort of rose to the occasion. He says He became cosmic harmony. That's part of the puzzlement, and Richard puzzles over that a great deal, that God needs this human interaction to come into His own, His, Her, It's own. God- That's how God grows by interacting with us, and it's very much like human experience. That's how human institutions grow and leaders and poets and probably the comic who finds maybe in high school kids laugh when she talks, and so she becomes Paula Pounstone, or somebody. 

Scott Langdon [00:21:03] Right. Right. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:21:03] If I've got the name right. 

Scott Langdon [00:21:05] Yeah. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:21:06] Yeah, you'd probably discover it, well, I'm funny. 

Scott Langdon [00:21:11] Yeah. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:21:12] And so God has something analogous to that, I guess being more anthropomorphic is, oh, not being shy about saying, well, that's a good way to describe how it is for God. That God discovers interacting with us aspects of God's elSf that then become much more developed and fine tuned and elaborated and so forth through interacting with us through that recognition. 

Scott Langdon [00:21:42] I think about it when I think about how I write fiction and when I'm writing fiction, a character that, well, all of the characters, actually, right, they're made up in my head, and I write them down. Right? And a character might be going in a certain direction, and then for some reason, it occurs to me that they would go in this other direction. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:22:09] Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:22:10] J.K. Rowling, who wrote the Harry Potter books and she talks about that, especially in the later books when a couple of the characters meet a dark end, and it wasn't necessarily she had thought about that. An advantage, it's when it comes to that point in the story this is what has to happen to these folks. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:22:29] Oh, yeah. Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:22:29] And she cried, she said, "When I-- this person had to die, what could I do about it?" But she mourned it. She cried about it because--

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:22:36] We all cry at moments in fiction, right? 

Scott Langdon [00:22:39] Yeah. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:22:40] And she's the author, so you'd think, well, she'd be behind the stage with the puppets, you know, but they are real people. That's the peculiarity of fiction and drama and so forth, is that real people get created and the writer has that experience of first, the writer is putting them together like a rag doll or Pinocchio, you know. So it's just made by Geppetto, but, whoa, now Pinocchio is real. Is a real boy. And so something like that happens to the writer. And I know you've talked this way, Richard Oxenberg, who's done amateur theater talks this way, that there's a point at which this character becomes very real, and Richard's even said sometimes more real than the other people, you know? 

Scott Langdon [00:23:30] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:23:32] I don't know, but, you know. 

Scott Langdon [00:23:33] And in that immediate moment in which you see that person that, you know, in everyday life, you would say, perhaps you see them as a character, and in that moment of the play or the movie or whatever, when that character that they're playing has a situation happen to them or whatever, and it it moves you in a way that in their normal life, they may not be a person who might move you. But– 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:23:57] Yes, yes.

Scott Langdon [00:23:57] In the character of this other one, it gets to you. So that person becomes the agency through which you are able to be moved by this character. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:24:07] And in effect, to encounter the character. 

Scott Langdon [00:24:09] Yes, yes, yes, yes. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:24:10] As real. And God has something-- that's a very good analogy, Scott. God has something analogous to that, that we're in some sense created by God. There's not exactly a creation doctrine in God: An Autobiography, but we emerge, you might say, out of the divine. And then we're real people, you know? Even though we also have a God aspect, God can encounter us as other, in much the way the writer writing a character can encounter that character as other, as independent of the writer and having its own destiny, you might say, and probably learn from the character. 

Scott Langdon [00:24:55] Yes. And at the same time, there is never a-- there's never anywhere that a character-- Emily Dawson is a character that I've written and there is no where that Emily Dawson will go in Emily Dawson's world without me. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:25:13] Right. 

Scott Langdon [00:25:14] Right? And at the same time, you are right, that there is this other place. I'm like, oh, Emily, don't, don't do that, don't make a mistake. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:25:21] Right. 

Scott Langdon [00:25:22] Don't. Don't do it. And I'm writing it. You know? I'm writing, and, oh, don't go down that alley, but you have to. You know it's that, oh, well, God is just this puppet who, you know, saying, if we stay, oh, God, please don't give me cancer, then, oh, all right. I won't. But as the story progresses for us, both us, the human and God, at the same time, there is-- the destiny plays out as a play that is continually being improved by both of us, by God and me. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:25:51] And I think that's, you were quoting Richard Oxenberg earlier. I think that's a lot of what Oxenberg meant about the participatory nature of God. You know that God is interacting with us to do necessary work in the world, but we're also actualizing the divine in human form, in material form. And one of the themes in the book that I think Richard and I get back to in a subsequent dialogue, is that to be real-- the question is, why didn't God make an ideal world? Well, an ideal world would be kind of a hologram world without any decay, decline, without entropy, without aging. Well, that would not be real. That'd be the only problem. That would just not be real. And the real world is a world with entropy. And if you're an organism, it's a world with growth and aging and decay, sickness, death. You know, those are essential elements of reality. And God is enacting that aspect of reality not just in a sublime locus of God's Self, but through us, through His participation in our lives. 

Scott Langdon [00:27:10] And I think that is-- to understand that, is to understand the essential nature of peace in your life. Because for me, I find--. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:27:20] Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:27:20] When I think about this world and this body as almost an error. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:27:27] Right. 

Scott Langdon [00:27:27] That the struggles, that if I have struggle, if I have pain, if I have bad things that happen, that I am in error and God is not here any longer. I have to deal with this myself until good times are occurring. And then, oh, here's God again. Know that the participatory nature of God is the good and the bad, the evil and the righteous, all of it in the continuing unfolding play. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:27:55] I kept being very puzzled by that because to my ear would sometimes sound as if God was saying evil is okay. And no, no, God comes, "I'm not saying that evil is still evil. It's simply part of the warp and woof of reality. And reality is part and parcel divine. You know, and this is, you might say, how it has to play out. It can't play out without suffering. And even people having their egos run away with them having a mean streak, you know, these kinds of things. Okay. That's part of, you might say the logic of being human is that we have all these different conflicting tendencies. And that's why the challenge of life is to try to to get those integrated in a harmonious way, to use Richard's term, Richard Oxenberg's term, get them working together in a harmonious way, harmonious internally and harmonious vis-a-vis the people around us and harmonious ultimately with the divine. 

Scott Langdon [00:29:19] God talks about this age as being the New Axial Age, He tells us. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:29:24] Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:29:25] And this revelation, God says, is important now because of the timing of now, it is needed now. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:29:34] Yes. Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:29:34] And when I think about all that, what that could entail, I can't help but get caught up, not caught up in, but I can't help but remember and realize and be aware of the technological developments of our age. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:29:50] Sure. 

Scott Langdon [00:29:50] And Richard brings up the aspect of the revelation that God points to you, where He says the goal is to have the many and draw them back into the one. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:30:04] Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:30:05] And I've wondered about that a lot, what that could mean. And I don't think that means, and you please let's talk about this today, correct me if I'm wrong kind of thing here, but I don't know that is- I want to create individuals and then not-- no longer have individuals. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:30:21] Right. It was not--. 

Scott Langdon [00:30:21] Right. Some of the goals seem to be in these newer age ways of talking about spiritual things, spiritual matters is, we've got to get rid of the individuality and just be in the glorious one. And I think that's a mistake. I think what God is asking us to do is learn how to live as individuals and understand that we are essentially the one at the same time. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:30:47] Right. 

Scott Langdon [00:30:47] That God right knows God's self. God doesn't need the other to know God, God knows God. God needs the other to know other. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:30:58] Right. Yeah. The whole point of that is relationships--. 

Scott Langdon [00:31:02] Relationships. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:31:03] The kind of learning that I think it would include, learning about God self through a relationship. Because through a relationship you learn things about yourself that you don't know when you're just sitting all alone. You know a lot sitting all alone, that there are other things you learn only by interacting with people. And part of the meaning of that New Axial Age is that God has communicated through various religions. And there's a long story there we'll probably talk about some time. But the point is not for all the religions to come together into one religious meld, put them in a blender. There's some people who take that approach. But no, it's to see the diversity of divine manifestations and they manifest different aspects of the divine. Much the same analogy applies to the whole world. And the way you're talking about it, Scott, that you know, why did God create multiplicity was it just a blunder? Well, no, there's a reason you can't have the material worlds, the real world without a lot of its features. And you can't have people, you know, you go through, read through Genesis. God and Adam were not enough, you know, just one person. You had just one. Well, Adam tried to make friends with the animals, but he really need more of a life partner. So you create Eve. Well, you go on from there, they have children and so forth, and a whole human race emerges. And God has all these relationships with the many, and as Richard and I discuss it, the aim ends up not being pure unity, you know, just getting back to singularity, but something more analogous to a symphony orchestra. Where each instrument has its role and its distinctive. And I told a little story about the tuba player who doesn't even realize that the rest of Aida is being played. He just, no, he goes ummpa, ummpa, ummpa. But there is a whole thing. His job is, of course, to continue doing ummpa, ummpa, ummpa, and then when he sits in the audience one day said, "Well, there are all these other jobs." He kind of knew it abstractly, but now he hears it. And it's an integrated, harmonious whole. 

Scott Langdon [00:33:24] Yes. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:33:24] And not just harmony for its own sake, I guess, higher levels of meaning come. There are a lot of ways you can make things sort of harmonious, consistent, non fractious, but it's a kind of harmony that carries meaning. And that's what God is creating- a total world that has the meaning in the way a full symphony has meaning. Or maybe in the way all of Beethoven's , what is it, Nine Symphonies? Have a kind of collective meaning. Or indeed how all the classical music combined, you know, doing different things. And then the non-classical jazz and whatever, doing different things. That multiplicity is part of the richness of reality. And God is right there in with all of these, and not just the wonderful music, but lots of other things as well. 

Scott Langdon [00:34:22] And not just this music or that music. So classical music only God, but rap music, not God. That God is interwoven in all of that experience. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:34:31] Yes, exactly. Exactly. 

Scott Langdon [00:34:50] In our last episode, episode 67, when we had another, our third version of What's On Your Mind, we had a wonderful email from Eve. I don't know if you remember Eve's email? The close of her email, she said, she referenced Jesus, and said that she was wrapped up tangled up, just that--

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:35:10] Yes, yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:35:11] All, you know, in Jesus. She was excited about it. Just this idea that she and Jesus were inextricably connected is what she wanted to get across to us, there. And it was so powerful that no matter what she was going to be doing with her life, she was confused maybe and not quite sure, but she realized that she was wrapped. That no matter what step she took, that she was wrapped up in there with, tangled up with God in that way. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:35:33] And I think it would kind of imply that at every moment, not just once, moments of prayer or singing hymns or something, but in every moment of her life, including when she just dropped the gravy on the floor. 

Scott Langdon [00:35:46] Yeah.

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:35:47] You know, that it's all wrapped up with the divine and in her experience with Jesus, in particular. 

Scott Langdon [00:35:54] Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:35:55] People's lives are revelatory. Yeah. And let's share that. Let's share that. 

Scott Langdon [00:36:02] I think that's really a large point of why we continue to be is to share these experiences of God with one another to have these interactions. Yeah, absolutely. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:36:12] Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:36:14] Something happened to me last week that I wanted to share along these very lines. We've talked before, how I believe God speaks to me through art, and maybe as I am creating art or being the audience of someone else's art, or however, and I realized that I have it around me often. I'll have music on while I'm writing or doing something else. And last week I was going through a period of some depression and not wondering, you know, and wondering if I was going in the right direction about a thing. And I was working on an episode of this podcast, actually here in my office. And as I often do, I have music in the background. And one of my favorite things to put it in the background is the Netherlands Bach Society. They have a project that is ongoing to record on beautiful video and beautiful audio. Live performances of every piece of music by Johann Sebastian Bach. Wow. And I happened to have their YouTube station on, and I'll go to it, and I'll just maybe hit shuffle and just let–

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:37:18] Right. 

Scott Langdon [00:37:18] Pieces play. And sometimes it'll be a whole cantata, which would be a work for orchestra, choir and soloists, and often is in German. And so I don't speak German fluently, but having sung it, you know, I have some idea of things going on. But some cantatas are more familiar to me and some I don't know. And as I was listening to one that I did know, I was working in things and realized I was starting to feel down and very, you know, God, what do you really want from me? Do you want-- I don't understand. Are you abandoning me? I don't know. I'm feeling lost. And I hadn't realized that a new cantata had started to play as the autoplay had gone on and the other one had finished in and this one had gone on, and it was one I hadn't been familiar with. And because it was in German, I hadn't paid much attention. But about halfway into the cantata, the soprano has a solo. And the soprano's character is soul. It represents the soul, and the bass represents Jesus's response. And it's a duet. And I didn't know this was coming. I didn't. But as I was thinking these things about, am I abandoned, I was somehow nudged to pay attention. I don't know why. And I heard this and I went over to the video and paid more attention to it specifically and listened and watched this performance and I was moved to tears by this exchange and I didn't understand the German and I, so I looked up on Google, I immediately looked up the German and what are they saying? And the cantata number B, it's cantata number 21. And the English translation of the title is I Had Much Affliction and the soul is asking God, why have you abandoned me? And God comes back with I haven't, I've been here all along is sort of the theme of the whole thing. But in this particular duet exchange, the soul is saying, "Come my Jesus and restore," and Jesus is saying, "Yes, I am coming and restoring." And the part that I got-- that was nudged to pay attention to, the soul says, "I must always be suspended in misery. Yes. Oh yes, I am lost." The soul is saying, "Ja, ach ja, ich bin verloren!" And Jesus comes back with, "No, oh, no, you are chosen." He says, "Nein, ach nein, du bist erkoren!" And that exchange goes back and forth. "I'm lost." Jesus says, "No, you're not. You're, you're okay." Says, "You hate me, you hate me." Jesus says, "No.  Ich liebe dich," He says, "I love you, I love you." And these two artists and the Netherlands Bach Society and the chorus and all that whole performance that was done some years ago. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:40:25] Yeah. 

Scott Langdon [00:40:26] In the past. Became my present moment. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:40:31] Yes. 

Scott Langdon [00:40:31] And through the agency of those performers and everyone who made the Internet and everybody who made my MacBook Air and everybody who made my earphones and everyone who was involved in everything, they got to bring that to me and my present moment for God to say, no, you are not lost. I am here. And it was one of the– I just cried and cried. It was one of the most revelatory, beautiful things. And I was present to put it together to go, oh, this is happening. So, I knew what I was knowing. It was absolutely a miracle. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:41:02] Amazing. No, that's absolutely beautiful, Scott, and deeply, deeply meaningful and a good lesson for all of us. Something I noticed right at the beginning, Scott, you talk about listen, as you know, the number one message in the book. At the beginning, you say you were nudged or something to kind of pay attention to this music in the background. And then that led to the rest of the experience. But you were nudged further to pay attention to particular things in it. It sounds like, I think you use that word again, but you're following that imperative to listen. And since you have the capacity for aesthetic response, the music is moving you. And of course you then look up the words, you understand the Soul and Jesus, so you got some sense, no doubt, just as you're listening to what's going on, to the feeling of the music and the voices, but then those words that you quote and we all feel abandoned in one sense all the time. You know? That's in part, that would be one description of the human condition, would be feeling abandoned. But at the same time, we're never alone, we're never abandoned. And there's always a relation to the divine through Jesus or however it comes to a particular individual to you might say, accept that non-aloneness and to accept that love and attention and care. So that's a wonderful story and it shows a divine aspect of our modern technology and everything which is beautiful, also is a reflection on our age and maybe part of the New Axial Age opportunity that we can communicate so readily with one another in present time. 

Scott Langdon [00:42:57] Mm hmm. And we can get an email from someone like Eve or someone like Jenny or someone like Joe, who is, you know, we've talked about before, and that they can, wherever they are in the world, reach out and share an experience like that with us or with anyone. You know, that's the age we're living. 

Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:43:13] The three we had last time, we're completely different, one from another, and yet each one full of important meaning. And so that's part of what we learn by hearing from individual's own stories and the story you just told Scott, that's yet another, that's not exactly like Jenny, and not exactly like Joe, certainly not exactly like Eve, or the other. But here's another report. And, so we look forward to hearing what other people have to say. 

Scott Langdon [00:43:42] Very much so. 

Scott Langdon [00:43:49] Thank you for listening. To God: An Autobiography, The Podcast. Subscribe for free today wherever you listen to your podcasts and hear a new episode every week. You can hear the complete dramatic adaptation of God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher by Jerry L. Martin, by beginning with episode one of our podcast and listening through its conclusion with Episode 44. You can read the original true story in the book from which this podcast is adapted. God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher, available now at Amazon.com, and always at godanautobiography.com. Pick up your own copy today. If you have any questions about this or any other episode, please email us at questions@godanautobiography.com and experience the world from God's perspective as it was told to a philosopher. This is Scott Langdon. I'll see you next time.