What is the most incredible story ever told? The drama that unfolds in the plot line of your life, of every individual, and in God's story.
God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher, is a revelation for today, seeking spiritual truth through all religions and forms of spirituality.
Join show host Scott Langdon and philosopher / author Dr. Jerry L. Martin for What's On Our Mind, a conversation about the greatest drama in history and the:
You Might Also Like:
Read God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher.
Begin the dramatic adaptation of God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher.
Related Content: [Video] Why Did God Pick Me to Talk to? | What's Wrong With Ego? | How Do You Live With God?
Share Your Story | Site | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | YouTube |
What is the most incredible story ever told? The drama that unfolds in the plot line of your life, of every individual, and in God's story.
God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher, is a revelation for today, seeking spiritual truth through all religions and forms of spirituality.
Join show host Scott Langdon and philosopher / author Dr. Jerry L. Martin for What's On Our Mind, a conversation about the greatest drama in history and the:
You Might Also Like:
Read God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher.
Begin the dramatic adaptation of God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher.
Related Content: [Video] Why Did God Pick Me to Talk to? | What's Wrong With Ego? | How Do You Live With God?
Share Your Story | Site | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | YouTube |
Scott Langdon [00:00:17] This is God: An Autobiography, The Podcast. A dramatic adaptation and continuing discussion of the book God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher by Jerry L. Martin. He was a lifelong agnostic, but one day he had an occasion to pray. To his vast surprise, God answered- in words. Being a philosopher, he had a lot of questions, and God had a lot to tell him. Episode 103.
Scott Langdon [00:01:04] This is Episode 103 of God: An Autobiography, The Podcast. I'm Scott Langdon, and today we return to our series What's On Our Minds. In this 10th edition of our series, Jerry and I spend some time reflecting on our 100th episode and what we learned from that celebratory conversation that included our whole team. We also talk about all we gleaned from Alex's two emails we shared with you in episode 101. I hope you enjoyed last week's special Thanksgiving episode, where we took a look back at episode nine and how Jerry responded to God's very specific call for his life. As we move into the holiday season here in the U.S. and around the world, we know how precious your time is. So, thank you for spending this time with us. I hope you enjoy the episode.
Scott Langdon [00:02:01] Welcome back, everybody to another addition of What's On Our Minds. Jerry and I are here today, and we are going to be talking about the last few episodes that we've played. But it's, it's it would go-- but it would be remiss of me not to pay attention to probably the biggest thing that might be on our minds, which is the hundredth episode. It was a fantastic celebration, a great time to get the team together and have everybody meet the team. I really enjoyed putting that episode together.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:02:25] I found it amazing myself. I hope the listeners find it half as interesting as I did because, you know, you work with people you don't necessarily know, their backstories, just the daily work, even working on a project like this. And so, I learned a lot about what had been going on with Laura when she first applied for the job and with Amanda and with you. I knew your story a little more than theirs, but these were all really interesting because they are having their own journey and it wasn't necessarily a spiritual quest in the, you know, explicit, overt form of that. They're living their lives as best they can. Right? But I did feel that one of the things you saw that I saw that I learned took away from it was that each one brought something that showed that they were on a high, you might say, a quest for something high. Just in their lives. In the sense of their own lives. And they had, you might say, equipment or materials in their life that they had gathered to enable them to do that. And I was struck with Laura. That was intu-- what she called intuition.
Scott Langdon [00:03:48] Mm hmm.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:03:49] But she said-- she said as a child. She said she applied for the job. She saw it. "I'm going to get this. This is what I'm going to do next." And I've never applied for anything and thought, "Oh, this is what I'm going to do next." But since as a child, there are things in her that aren't just stray thoughts, I gather, but somehow in her depths, she knows, "Ah, yes. This is for me. This is going to happen." And that's an interesting thing to bring to life. And I mention this in part because at the time, at this time, none-- none of our team were explicitly religious. You were the most religious, Scott, but you had stepped back from the traditional form of religiosity and therefore their bring-- but they're bringing something else to it. And you might want to say just a little bit, Scott, since I mentioned you, and then we can go back and talk about the others, this sense that you had, I guess you say a little during the episode that the separateness of God seemed threatening.
Scott Langdon [00:04:57] Yeah, I always knew from the very earliest age that God was real, that God and I were in something together. It just, it-- I never thought about it or questioned it. So, if I were eight years old, we'd go back and you'd see the eight-year-old me and say, "Is there a God?" I'd say, "Of course. I mean, what do you mean?" And not just because I don't think of my upbringing or because of-- I think those things, you know, going to church from an early age and seeing, you know, my parents and my grandparents in their tradition and, you know, living into that as one does. I mean, I'm a child. You do what your parents tell you. At the same time, that was, in a sense, separate from my knowing. You know, I don't– I don't think that a religious tradition of going to Sunday school and all those things gave me a knowledge of God. I think, you know, it's already there. And those things sort of nurtured it and enhanced it. Maybe I felt like I needed to make it my own. Any kind of belief system or view of God or any kind of articulation of my faith needed to be mine at some point. Not my parents are not the view of my tradition. But it needed to be in mine. And I think that every individual goes through that to some extent or another. Who am I? Who am I in relation to that which is more than me? Who am I in relation to the other humans, other creatures, other things that are alive? Who are we and what are we doing here? To me, the earliest introduction was the religious tradition. Getting away from that, but never getting away from- I don't believe there is a God. The concept, the construct of what God is and how God fits into our lives that we see through a religious tradition. I wasn't satisfied with where mine had led me, so I needed to kind of, instead of dropping everything forever, kind of dropped everything for a while and then just said, "Okay, God. Show yourself to me." Not explicitly like that, but just sort of, "I don't say that You're not there." I just believe in... I can go with mystery, but I don't know that any one religious tradition has, has, has nailed it for me. And being able to just say, "Okay, that's true. My tradition may not be right. My view of it may be off, at least for me. I'm not going to reject everything. But now I'm a clean slate." Like, what do you want? And as soon as I released all of that, I didn't have to defend. I didn't have-- Then I feel like God just led me to something new. In a way it was something new and, in a way, it was something old in the sense that that eight-year-old boy sort of returned. And so, if you ask me now, "Is there a God?" I would say, "Of course. What do you mean by that?"
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:07:50] Back to the original--.
Scott Langdon [00:07:52] So in a sense--
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:07:53] Understanding.
Scott Langdon [00:07:54] Yeah. And I think that in some ways it goes to, you know, my religious tradition is Christianity. So, I can talk in that language a bit. But to have, you know, to have words like Jesus saying, "You need to become like a child or need to be born again." To me, those concepts were strange and difficult. But when I look at them now, I think, well, yeah, in a way it's sort of it is like a child. I had to let all of my preconceived sort of adult versions go and go back to what a child does. Which is. Why is that? Why is that? Ooh, that's interesting. That's curious. Let me look at it this way. And so, like a child now I look at God as, "Oh, what are we doing today? What's going on?" And it's exciting.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:08:38] Yeah. So that's very different. So, you went away from God and came back in part through this project, I gather. To... Came back to God, but with a new, maybe deeper, more, you know, thought. Thought through in a different way, capacity. And so, you brought that to the project, your own religious history and knowledgeability, because you had studied the scriptures and so forth. You knew a lot about the Christian tradition and of the biblical text and so forth. So, you brought that to it. And I'm struck with somebody like Laura brought to at this kind of intuition. And if you look at the... But did not have formal religious background in her family, her parents were divorced early and that just was not present in her life. So she was, you know, going along on her own steam, you might say, and maybe family support in other ways. But. But did have this capacity of intuition which was working for her.
Scott Langdon [00:09:46] Yeah.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:09:47] And then if-- when we listen to Amanda two things struck me. I knew from the beginning that she had been interested in the Stoics. Well, the Stoics were pre-Christian philosophers. So, they influenced early Christianity, in fact. But she was a Stoic and it's if the most high minded, you might say, of the ancient traditions. Wisdom, traditions. And I gather it's having a bit of revival because there are a lot of people who really can't be Christian, or they're turned off by formal religiosity. And the Stoic wisdom, is a lot of it is to be rational, do what's natural, you know, what fits with nature. And it's a-- and you don't do anything low minded or selfish or grasping in the Stoic tradition. So, I thought, well, that's interesting. So, she's bringing-- she already has an elevated sense of what life is about. But the other thing was I had never heard this before asking, you know, what was going on when you applied for the job. Well, she'd finished a degree, paid for at great personal cost, you know, pandemic going on. She's a parent and oh my gosh. And she'd gotten her degree and now she's applying for jobs and applying for this one, that one, the other thing. And they were all kinds of these, much like the job with us on social media. And it was kind of advertising, nothing. But she felt, you know, it was social media for the sake of social media, for the sake of hits or something. And. And nothing she could connect to personally, she said. She cried. She said she cried because she wanted a job that would mean something to her, give her some sense of purpose that she personally as a whole person could connect to. Okay, let's get this done. And then this job came through. And she-- At first, Laura was not skeptical. And part of it, she met Abigail and me and thought, well, these are great people. Which is very nice. Very nice for her to say that. But that is one of the ways you size up these things.
Scott Langdon [00:12:14] Sure, you meet people, yeah.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:12:15] Is, well, who is this? Amanda said she tends to be a skeptic and a scoffer and thought, "Oh, no." But then she too, "Well, at least they seemed like nice people." It was more like a fallback. But, okay, well, let's try this out. And of course, it does relate to a sense of purpose. And so, it turned out. Whoa. And Amanda said about the Stoics, you know, they have this high minded, very rationalist. We talked about Mr. Spock as the ideal Stoic.
Scott Langdon [00:12:51] Right.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:12:52] Mr. Spock is not going to do anything low or sordid either. I think maybe he's incapable of telling a lie. But not much spirituality. And I think that dimension, she was saying, is growing for her. You know, this is a microcosm of the whole world out there, Scott. Everybody is living a drama. You talk about being a storyteller. God: An Autobiography, He's tell- He says to me, "Tell my story.".
Scott Langdon [00:13:53] Right.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:13:54] And He says, "It needs to be told again in a new way." In part because a lot has happened since then.
Scott Langdon [00:14:06] Sure. And the way we know things has changed. The immediacy with which we know not only information, but other people's opinions, other people's takes on things. How do you feel about this or that? I mean, you and I can have this conversation now instantly and immediately know and I can see you now. It's not just even over the phone. Right. I'm looking at you via Zoom. But, you know, when the Bible was written, let's say 2000 years ago, give or take, they didn't-- People couldn't communicate the way we can now with just technically the way I can talk to somebody in Japan right away. So, the dynamic not only of what is available to know, but how we go about knowing it is so drastically different that I can see that God would want a new--.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:14:52] It's time.
Scott Langdon [00:14:54] Yeah, yeah. It's a new time is the perfect time to be able to say, "Hey, this is God's story for all of us."
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:15:02] Well, of course, a lot of God's story, it turns out, I didn't know this was going in, was precisely- what else was God doing? I mean, there is God's story with regard to, you know, the people of Israel and so forth. But this wasn't the whole world. That wasn't all of history. And in fact, at one point, we're praying, praying about prehistoric times and the cave paintings and what they-- what those people, the divine reality as they were picking it up. And then we go on to the Chinese and the people of India and these different traditions, the ancient Egyptians, some who've been passed by history because of misfortunes that they had, the Zoroastrians were riding high as the religion of the Persian Empire. And then, whoa. You know, Alexander the Great marched through. You know, one thing and another. And so, God was at work in all of those. And I did not pray about-- I subsequently read a great study of Nuer religion n-u-e-r, which is a tribe in the Sudan I believe, an anthropologist wrote. The anthropologist was so impressed with the religiosity of the Nuer tribe that he converted into his tradition, which was Christianity, and didn't become a Nuer, but he thought, "Hey, there's reality behind all this stuff." And most anthropologists are pretty distant from the beliefs of the people they study. But no, wow, these people have a lot of wisdom and I'm going to get my version of that kind of wisdom. Anyway, everybody's got the story and that's, I think, a kind of upshot of God: An Autobiography. I can't now remember the best passages that would illustrate this, but these cultures have stories, you know, I mean, look at the story of the people of Israel. That's a story- the story of Jesus and what he did. That's a story. I was led to read something that isn't one of the holiest of the Hindu texts, the Mahabharata. It's often called the Hindu Iliad because it's a great epic that ends up in a great battle, the most famous part of which is the Bhagavad Gita, often, you know, published separately because it's this culminating dialogue between our champion warrior, Arjuna and Krishna, his friend, who's also actually God, and reveals himself fully in these dialogues in order to get Arjuna to do the right thing against evil. Arjuna is the best fighter, we've got to get him into this, and he keeps finding one deflection or another. "Well, I don't know this, I don'-- I can't do this." And Krishna talks him into it. But, you know, look at these stories. And our lives are stories. And one of the roles God is God is both-- is in part a witness to our story. A story almost needs a witness. You know, you write a story, you need a reader. What's in the story of someone who's following a plot. And, you know, we don't just do our stories all alone. And of course, as God: An Autobiography develops, God is a partner in our story and as it fully develops, and I know this came out in our 100th episode discussion, God needs help. And you, Scott, put in, inserted that. Those quotes in the episode where God is saying something like, "It's hard on people for me to love them." You know, somehow this is-- "You are my eyes onto the world. I need people to do it for me. You need to love each other. Let me express my love through you." And so, a lot of our story is doing our best. As one reviewer of the book, reviewing it for a kind of parents' magazine, you know, thinking about what to tell your children, "We are God's ambassadors," was this take. We are God's ambassadors, and thought, well that's a great message for children. You know, you got to follow up on this high calling.
Scott Langdon [00:20:34] One of the things that I think is in common that we have here on this team, which is also a microcosm of a larger process that I think God is working with that we've just talked about, the key I think, part of the key, is that we all take it very seriously. Each one of us had to step through doubt, step through pain, step through all of it and rely on one another and rely on that partnership fundamentally and foremost, that partnership with God. I had to realize God will show me as I step forward what the road will look like. I don't have to see what the world will look like before I walk down it. I believe that God will lead me down the right road because I feel that divine pull that we've been talking about in the past few episodes.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:21:25] Yeah. You know, I've sometimes felt, "Oh, no, I'm behind. I need-- I'm supposed to be getting this and that done and promoting the book in this and that way." And I'm a deep introvert, so it's challenging for me to do a lot of these things. And the God book, you know, I'm praying about it. And God says, "Look, your only job is to do each day what I tell you to do.".
Scott Langdon [00:21:47] Mm hmm.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:21:48] And so to me, that comes through a voice, but through prayer. It's a voice in my mind, usually. But you need to trust you know what Laura trusts, her intuition. You need to trust that these gut feelings and sense of direction that comes to you is God, you know, or at least an element, a divine element to it. That you can kind of- you can go with it. It's not necessarily infallible, but it's way better than not going. It's your best guide. It's like you've got a compass. Why not follow it, you know? And a sad thing, you know, we're talking about the hundredth episode, but there was also the What's On Your Mind, where we talked about Alex. And Alex was someone who kept wanting to hear God. And actually, read through the whole God book as says he prayed and prayed and prayed and nothing came back. Nothing. And he says, and this is very sad, and I don't know that I really understand what you might say clinically, because from my point of view, something's malfunctioning here in his spiritual system, in his, you know, the whole psychological system includes the spiritual level. And somehow, he doesn't even feel a nudge, a sense of- oh, maybe this way. And I don't we didn't probe with him in these brief exchanges. Does he ever feel-- most people have some sense of a voice of what we call the voice of conscience, which, of course, isn't normally a voice, but it comes close to it. It's, "Whoa, don't go there. This would be wrong. Hey fella, this would be wrong. Listen up, you know?".
Scott Langdon [00:23:39] Yeah.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:23:39] And I don't know if he feels that, which is the negative nudge, but it's one of the keys, and I think we discussed this, mentioned this in the hundredth episode was where God just says, "Listen to Me, even whisper." Because this is just going to be nudges and instincts, intuitions, intimations, you know, a feel. People often who aren't religious say, well, in the end, before deciding whether to accept the deal or the job offer of the marriage- I checked my gut, I go to the gut feeling. Well, that's sound. You know, you're a whole human being and what registers most deeply in your being has a very good chance of being right, of having processed everything successfully. And there's a divine element to that from my point of view, after the experience of the God book, there's a divine element in that. And so, you've got a very good reason to trust it and to even feel well, it's probably what God wants me to do.
Scott Langdon [00:24:49] And for Alex, he had a very difficult time, like you said, connecting to that pull. And he felt like every time he asked or said that there was nothing. Nothing in the depths of the silence, just silence, he says. And you ask him, "Can you probe those depths of the silence and see what you find in there? Get to the bottom of it." And listening to that, preparing that, you and I talking about that last week, I've since really spent more time with that thought. And part of that, for me, I can't speak for Alex, of course, but I have a very-- I have had and am continuing to have a very similar situation and that is- when I look in the depths of that nothing, in the depths of that silence, what I am finding by that practice of looking into that is that everything is temporary and a thing. So, if I'm looking for a thing or a sign or a direction, if I'm looking for something, a thought that says this, or even a feeling that confirms that, all of those things come and go as temporary. So, when I investigate the no-thing, it's a place of perspective and I see everything is temporary, and just from a place of perspective, not that it's not important or doesn't need to be dealt with. But I realized that's not me. This depression is not me. I'm having depression, maybe, let's say. I'm going through a depressive time. Maybe there's even a situation where there's not a specific thing causing me to be depressed, but I am. And I go, "Well, I shouldn't be depressed. Why am I depressed?" Well, if I look at the depression, I realize that's something that doesn't stay forever. It comes and goes. So that's not me. And it doesn't mean, "Oh, well, if you don't like feeling that way, just don't feel like that." There's more to it. There might be counseling, there might be medication, whatever it might be for you. It's not that it's not important, but from that place of perspective, and I realize that's not me- now I say, "Okay, I can make a step to go forward in one direction or another. Do I want to remain feeling this way, this sadness and so forth, or would I like to move in a direction that is more peaceful and more with purpose. So, oh- I want a life with purpose. Like Mandi would say. Okay, great, we know that. Now let's step forward. Well, which way do I go? For me, I always had to figure out, okay, I've got to figure out which way I'm going before I can go that way. But what I'm saying is that now when I step back in that place and go, "What do you want me to do?" I realize that each footstep will be guided by God in the right way. Just like stepping out a second story window will send me down in the same exact way. When I say I want to move forward in the direction of purpose, and in the direction that you want me to lead to go in God. I know that if I take my foot and step forward, God will be guiding me in that way. I can completely release it and let it go, because the evidence for me has been the peace in my life that continues every time, I take a step like that. When I take a step of, "Oh, I don't know what I have got to do, and I have got to figure it all out." That doesn't feel good. That feels painful. I start to feel lonely. I start to feel lost. I start to feel disconnected from God. But when I step away from those feelings and say, God, will you lead me? The peace is there. It doesn't come, I don't find peace. It is peace. I am the peace that I'm looking for because that separateness and same, I'm tapping into that same place. And that same place is peace.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:28:30] Yeah. I was struck-- You're talking about peace. And I've been struck that different people have different, in part different spiritual needs, places they need to get. And Laura also talked about when she trusts her intuition, she feels peace. And there the feeling of peace is in part like proof, you know, which we've tested it out- it gives me peace. Therefore, it's valid.
Scott Langdon [00:29:09] Right. Exactly.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:29:10] So these intuitions do pan out so that it's not the only validity it's just, "Oh, it makes me feel peaceful." But that's a crucial part. And she also, you know, we were quote quizzing her. She's so super organized, just astounding to me. And she says that goes back to being a mom.
Scott Langdon [00:29:30] Right, that's right.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:29:31] Managing everybody's life, including her husband. You know, what wives know is husbands are just like more children. You have got to manage them and keep them track. So, she's, you know, doing that. And I know she has older relatives that she's often providing care to and arranging things for. So, I think she's got this wonderful organizing capacity, and she says when she gets something organized, she feels peace.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:30:28] The other thing you often talk about, Scott, that I've wondered about is you often talk and maybe these are closely connected with struggling over ego. You feel, and I have wondered if you aren't being too hard on yourself. And I'll tell you why. Well, in fact, there's a passage in the God book where I pray about ego and God distinguishes two different types of ego and says, "You need an ego to get through life. You need self-strength to get through life." It's part of your machinery I'd say is that you got a sense of yourself, and you repel borders. If somebody tries to posture around, shove you around, "No, I'm not going to put up with this." Right? That's-- this is ego strength, in part. The wrong thing, I was told is attachment to ego, as a second order, attachment to ego. But I think to be an actor, don't you need some ego? Don't you need-- Well, one element, you sometimes talk about this Scott, at least it sounds to my ear resonates with it, you take pride in your work.
Scott Langdon [00:31:50] Mm hmm.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:31:51] And I guess I had some other occasion; I don't know if it ended up in the book or not. A lot of little more personal things ended up not being included in the final. But it was where I was pleased that someone super distinguished in my profession had instantly (maybe it is in the book) had instantly stepped forward to be helpful. Knowing nothing of me. I was not a former student or former colleague or anything. And I ask, I pray, "Is this wrong?" And no! I mean, "He thinks well of you." Presumably, hopefully for good reasons. And so, I should take that in. Okay. This is a kind of response that I've earned, you might say, or that I deserve, or whatever. Anyway, it's okay for me to enjoy that. Do you enjoy your successes? Right. You want to. And you want to enjoy them. That's positive. It gives you energy for the next challenge. Right? Anyway, how do you respond to that? My argument on behalf of your ego.
Scott Langdon [00:33:01] Well, I really appreciate that. And it is a-- it's something that takes some thought and insight, I think, to look at. And because of this project, I have been able to do that, and God has been able to, I think, speak to me through that, through looking into this very thing you mentioned. For me as an actor, one of the ways I articulate it is, let's say, for example, the musical Oliver, based on Oliver Twist by Charles Dickens. I've done that show. It was my first show as a child, I played Oliver and then as an adult I played Fagin. And I love the show and I hope to do it again. Now when I go out on that stage as Fagin in the world of, you know, in 19th century London, and he's, you know, he's criminal, he's got these boys, but he's, you know, all of the things about the story that make it so great- when we're doing that production, if you come and see me in that play for that two and a half hours or whatever it is, when you're sitting in that seat, when you're looking up, you're entering a world in which Fagin is a real individual. Now you will obviously see that is Scott up there playing, but if everything's going right, you forget that and you just see Fagin. But the thing about that is, without that particular production, without Scott Langdon, there is no Fagin. Now, if you were to see my understudy or someone else, you would see that person's Fagin. But in that world that you're watching, when I'm on stage, you do not see Fagin without me.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:34:32] Right.
Scott Langdon [00:34:33] So every movement that Fagin makes, I make. Everything that Fagin says, I say. But it's Fagin. Now, the reason that's important is that what came to me in almost a not an immediate aha one time flash, but over time what has come to me and been made very clear is that there is no-- in that same way in the theater of this world, if you will, being in this world, there is no Scott Langdon without God.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:35:02] Yeah, yeah, I see.
Scott Langdon [00:35:03] So in that very same way, everything that's Scott does, God does. Now in going back to Fagin, if Scott were to say something that's not one of Fagin's lines, that would be taking you out of that world. It wouldn't be that world anymore. It would be something else. In the same way, God is not going to say something without-- through me. He does it outside of me. When we talk about there's an inside world to everyone and an outside world to everyone. If you could think of it that way, what's inside my mind? And then what seems to be outside of my mind, right? So, in terms of what goes on inside of my mind, there is no thought or line or anything that I say that God is not 100% attached to in that same way that Fegan is not alive without Scott. Now, once I sort of think about that and I go, "Well am I-- aren't I doing things, making decisions that are ungodly? Maybe I lie or cheat or do something that would be not God. And I think, well, yeah, I do that. But God, I didn't leave God behind. God, God didn't get deserted. That's me, and God is still there. But it's that separation enough to say Scott who is separate from God. Scott, you did something that now the consequences they don't feel right. You've caused other people to suffer or you're suffering yourself or that doesn't-- it's not right. And so, in that sense, I don't feel a peace right. But even if-- but peace doesn't, for me, peace doesn't mean that it's easy or simple or without hard work, which I think goes back to the Stoics with Amanda. A lot of people who have had religiosity fail for them say, "No, it's not some hairy-fairy thing and everything's taken care of. I have to do something. I have to get up in the morning. I have to organize my life. I have to be disciplined. I have to do this. I'm doing this." And then we hear the religious people say, "Well, God's doing this. It's not me. It's God, it's not me. It's God." Well, what I've come to is it's both. And you can't disconnect them ever. You can't disconnect them.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:37:16] Well, it's very hard to understand. It's very hard to understand the both/and because we're separate enough, as you're saying. We are separate enough that we can obey or disobey. In fact, we seem to be able to disobey at will. You know? Nothing's easier it seems than to disobey or just ignore what we feel God would want in a situation. And yet, at some, in some respect, it is all God. So that-- I find that to be a bit of a puzzle. You seem to have worked it out in a way satisfactory to your understanding, Scott. But I guess I find it puzzling in part because I'm more interested in the separate side. I don't see it as so much a problem as a solution. And that has to do with our different spiritualities and our personalities and life history. For me, the separateness is what enables me to love Abigail and for her to love me.
Scott Langdon [00:38:33] Right in her particularity.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:38:35] Yeah. To me, the particularity of Abigail. I mean, I know there's a passage in the Hindu literature, which when you love your wife, you're supposed to love the Divine in her, or the Atman in her. Well, no. I love her that includes the parts that aren't divine.
Scott Langdon [00:38:53] Right, yeah.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:38:56] And thankfully, she loves me, including the ungodly parts, and that's really crucial. And I know I had a friend who used to react badly when Mother Theresa, you know, wonderful humanitarian, just unbelievable. But she said, "She would look at the infant's face and see Jesus." Well, that's nice. If she looks at me and sees Jesus, well, I want you-- Hey, see me. You know, it's I don't know if you've ever known somebody, I certainly have, who has I forget what they call it psychologically, it's a kind of-- Well, anyway, where they don't have boundaries between you and them. So, every time they look at you, they see a projection. What their fantasy of you.
Scott Langdon [00:39:45] Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:39:47] And well, no, no. Look at me and my particularity. And the particularity- God is my partner right along here. That's absolutely right. But the particularity, the story, to my mind is lived through the particularity. The God part, I mean, God has a story and we're part of that story, but just the fact of our unity with God isn't a story and doesn't have any particular meaning or outcome or drama. And I think of our lives as very dramatic. And that is a lot of the meaning of life, is that it's very dramatic.
Scott Langdon [00:40:43] Thank you for listening. To God: An Autobiography, The Podcast. Subscribe for free today wherever you listen to your podcasts and hear a new episode every week. You can hear the complete dramatic adaptation of God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher by Jerry L. Martin, by beginning with episode one of our podcast and listening through its conclusion with Episode 44. You can read the original true story in the book from which this podcast is adapted. God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher, available now at Amazon.com, and always at godanautobiography.com. Pick up your own copy today. If you have any questions about this or any other episode, please email us at questions@godanautobiography.com and experience the world from God's perspective as it was told to a philosopher. This is Scott Langdon. I'll see you next time.