Embark on a captivating journey into spirituality, self-discovery, and the mysterious realms of reality and God with What's On Our Mind in this episode of God: An Autobiography, The Podcast.
In this installment, Scott and Jerry explore Shelly's letter, unraveling the profound encounter of hearing the voice of God and navigating the essence of divine presence and communication. The authoritative voice of God commands attention, offering guidance through deep reflection and introspection. Addressing the timeless query, "What Did I Do Wrong?" – Scott and Jerry ponder life's challenges and the Job Syndrome.
Reveal the true essence of prayer and reflect on the importance of aligning with the divine will- Thy Will Be Done.
Dispelling a theological misconception that characterizes God as a rescue helicopter, the hosts challenge the notion that prayer is to fulfill desires, instead, a valued doorway for seeking divine guidance while navigating life's journey.
Extend the exploration into human relationships, uncovering the transformative power of expressing love. Scott and Jerry underscore the significance of acknowledging divine love manifesting in diverse forms, whether through human connections, furry companions, or unexpected blessings in life.
Tune in for thought-provoking discussions, soulful reflections, and a reminder to appreciate the divine symphony in the every day- God is always present, even when unheard.
Other Series:
The podcast began with the Dramatic Adaptation of the book and now has several series:
Resources:
Hashtags: #whatsonourmind #godanautobiography #experiencegod
Would you like to be featured on the show or have questions about spirituality or divine communication? Share your story or experience with God! We'd love to hear from you! 🎙️
Share Your Story | Site | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | YouTube |
Embark on a captivating journey into spirituality, self-discovery, and the mysterious realms of reality and God with What's On Our Mind in this episode of God: An Autobiography, The Podcast.
In this installment, Scott and Jerry explore Shelly's letter, unraveling the profound encounter of hearing the voice of God and navigating the essence of divine presence and communication. The authoritative voice of God commands attention, offering guidance through deep reflection and introspection. Addressing the timeless query, "What Did I Do Wrong?" – Scott and Jerry ponder life's challenges and the Job Syndrome.
Reveal the true essence of prayer and reflect on the importance of aligning with the divine will- Thy Will Be Done.
Dispelling a theological misconception that characterizes God as a rescue helicopter, the hosts challenge the notion that prayer is to fulfill desires, instead, a valued doorway for seeking divine guidance while navigating life's journey.
Extend the exploration into human relationships, uncovering the transformative power of expressing love. Scott and Jerry underscore the significance of acknowledging divine love manifesting in diverse forms, whether through human connections, furry companions, or unexpected blessings in life.
Tune in for thought-provoking discussions, soulful reflections, and a reminder to appreciate the divine symphony in the every day- God is always present, even when unheard.
Other Series:
The podcast began with the Dramatic Adaptation of the book and now has several series:
Resources:
Hashtags: #whatsonourmind #godanautobiography #experiencegod
Would you like to be featured on the show or have questions about spirituality or divine communication? Share your story or experience with God! We'd love to hear from you! 🎙️
Share Your Story | Site | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | YouTube |
Scott Langdon [00:00:17] This is God: An Autobiography, The Podcast. A dramatic adaptation and continuing discussion of the book God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher by Jerry L. Martin. He was a lifelong agnostic, but one day he had an occasion to pray. To his vast surprise, God answered- in words. Being a philosopher, he had a lot of questions, and God had a lot to tell him. Episode 157.
Scott Langdon [00:01:10] Hello and welcome to episode 157 of God: An Autobiography, The Podcast. I'm your host, Scott Langdon, and this week on another edition of What's On Our Mind, Jerry and I continue to talk about the questions and ideas that came up for us while discussing an email from a listener named Shelly in last week's episode of our podcast. This is not a part two of last week's program, but we do reference Shelly and her story a few times during the course of this episode. While you don't need to know about the particulars of Shelly's story to delve straight into our discussion today, if you'd like the complete context, I invite you to listen to the first four minutes of last week's episode, Episode 156, where I read Shelly's letter in its entirety and Jerry follows by reading his response at the time. At the heart of Shelly's suffering is a notion that God could somehow go away from us, even though that's impossible, it certainly feels that way. We still feel separate. I'm very grateful to be able to share these questions and thoughts with Jerry. Our discussions are always so meaningful to me. I hope you feel the same. Thanks for spending this time with us. I hope you enjoy the episode.
Scott Langdon [00:02:29] We've talked before about what it means to be real and how some theologies, some ways of talking about spiritual matters talk about none of this is real. Here's where I come in on that. If I'm feeling lonely, I sure do feel lonely. I feel it. I mean, and that is what it means to be on the planet, what it means to be in this body and experiencing the world is otherness. We cannot escape otherness and with otherness. And as you always mention, we live an organic life. This is, you know, we are corpuscles and so forth. We are here in the flesh and we are in the constraints of time. You could say time's a construct and all of that, and yet it feels like time. It feels like I get hurt if you prick me, do I not bleed? All of that. So to me to separate, it doesn't really make sense. I could say, okay, I can think of it that way. And yet heartbreak hurts. Cancer stinks. Winning a football game is wonderful. Losing, suffering, you know what I mean, all of that is the reality of the world and is real life. And I don't want to escape that. That's what I love about life. Is that all of it?
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:04:01] Well, according to God: An Autobiography, this world, this plane of existence that we're in now with our embodied selves is where all the action takes place. This is where it is. This is where God is present to somebody. This is the action for God also- is this dramatic life with human beings and with other beings in the universe, too, one would think, but there's a drama to it. And that's the drama of the divine life. God says-- I lived through your lives and not live through your lives like a vicarious observer, but as an interactor, the way a parent lives with their children and a husband and wife and coworkers live with each other. You live with your fellow actors, right? This is where the action is, and the challenge is to live that out in a way that's divinely aware, that's aware of the divine dimension, aware of the presence of God, and aware of both God within and God without God, inside God and outside, you might say, because there are both dimensions and they're compatible. I mean, they're perfectly both true.
Scott Langdon [00:05:25] Because there is otherness and God is constantly communicating with us. God has said to you, "You see Me all the time." You know, I'm always trying to communicate. And what I want most is for people to listen. That's what God says. Well, one of those ways is for God to speak in a voice to you. It might happen that way for you, it might not, who knows? For you, it was a very distinct way of God talking to you, and it seems as if Shelly had a very similar encounter in her letter. She says, "That night, as I was sleeping, a voice came to me. This was a voice in my ear, not in my head." And I loved the way she articulated that. She made a special point of the distinction. I am blown away and fascinated by my AirPods in my ears. And when I'm talking with my best friend who lives in South Jersey and here I live in Bristol, you know, it's a two hour drive away. But every day we talk on the phone and he is in a very real sense, in my head. And we can talk the science over, but it's radio waves and that. Okay. Tell me how it's happening and yet why? Like, it's, he's in my head. And yet there's a distinct difference between that and something that seems to be coming from outside in. It's not a thought I'm having. It's someone else contributing to my thought process. I don't know. I don't know how to articulate that. But you've had the experience. What is it like for you to interpret her line here?
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:07:13] Well, of course, I relate to it strongly because when God first spoke to me I turned to see if Abigail, who was writing in the park bench next to me to see if she heard it, you know, it was out there and I wasn't surprised that she did not stir. She was writing in her journal and just continued. So, she did not hear it. And so I thought, "Ah, it was a voice meant just for me." I wouldn't have been surprised had she heard it because it was, you know, audible, you might say, but not for her ears. And I understand the distinction that she's making. Sometimes, God's in my head, in my mind, and yet, as I think most of us who have these kinds of experience understand, because they all, we all talk the same way, we can tell the difference between our own thoughts and when it's calm. Where did that come from? But it's not just that it's a buff that doesn't quite cohere with our own train of typical style of thinking to ourselves. It's, no, it has its own character, the way a different voice always has its own character. It's an other voice, you know. And it has these divine characteristics, often a kind of, as I say, right after I hear the divine voice, it's too real and benign and authoritative for me really to doubt. And so this inner voice also comes across as real and benign and authoritative. Like if it tells you to do something, you sort of ought to do it, you know, assuming it's not jump off the bridge or something. But in my experience, it never is something bizarre like that.
Scott Langdon [00:09:13] When I think of authoritative, initially I think of someone in authority, so someone above me giving me an order or something like that, which is fine. When I think a little bit more deeply into it, I think authority in terms of the separateness of it. You know, it has its own intention that I will make meaning from. So it's I have I don't have that intention to begin with. So why would I hear that voice? Do you know what I mean? So for example, in your situation, you were an agnostic with no real interest in believing in God or not, either way was fine. And so when God spoke to you, it wasn't a, "Aha. See, I have confirmation now of God. There is a God, ha ha!" It just it didn't necessarily-- it wasn't something you were seeking. And so when it came, in some sense, there's the authority in its separateness. It's not, in a sense, a desire that was being fulfilled for you. Does that make sense what I mean?
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:10:18] Yeah. It was not at all a desire, I had no thoughts. I was perfectly happy. You live a wonderful life if you just follow the advice of the great philosophers, they're full of wisdom. If you sort it out and apply it to your own life. And so I was not feeling any lack or loss of meaning or purpose or anything and happy with this worldview that didn't have anything at the top, you might say. But at one point from me praying about the meaning of the Kingdom of God, and then Jesus preaching, and God defines it as- and the Kingdom of God is here already, I'm told. And the what is the Kingdom of God? It's this is God to Jerry, the presence of My authoritative love. So when your loved by God, it's not like being loved by the 12 year old next door who thinks you're just the greatest because you're giving bubblegum or something, who knows why, but, no this is the top level love. So, you know more comes with that love than just a smile and approval. It carries a weight, and that's how the divine voice generally is. It carries a weight for you, not authority like the czar sending orders out. It's not like-- it doesn't work like that. That's a sort of negative stereotype about the role of authority. You almost have to think, well, what's the authority of science? What's the authority of the dictionary? You know, you look a word up. There are many senses of the word authority, and they're just the authority of the wise person. Let's just go into a lot of stories with this. Let's go find out what uncle so-and-so thinks because he's the wisest person we know. And that wisdom has a kind of authority for us. Well, God has that kind of wisdom, and Shelly is finding that here. When God speaks to her and whispers, it was the one time she, I think, it's the only thing she directly quotes God is saying ever to her, even though she often seemed to pray and probably got some guidance and so forth from that. But it comes, and it's the sound of rushing waters. "I hear you. I hear you." Well, that's what God is offering Shelly. I do hear you. I do hear you. And of course, I'm telling her keep that in mind. You know, there's some times you'd like to hear God say it more, you know? And it's a bit like the you know, the wife complains, "'You never tell me you love me." Oh, yeah, I told you last February, remember? Well, that's not enough. You want to hear it more often. But, in fact, I think from God, when God discloses the divine self to you, and gives you this "blessed assurance," (to quote a hymn title) that needs to stick with you. You need to cling to that not sort of desperately seek for more words. The point of living with God is not to hear God talking to you. That's not the point of our lives with God. It's to live our life, you know, in concert with God, in sync with God, in tandem with God. These are all metaphors. At one point, I'm told it should be like singing a duet with God. Well, maybe you don't hear His voice, but you kind of know that you're in tune and you've got the divine beat, you might say, as you've lived through life. And I often, myself, now, I pray about something, but almost before I can formulate the prayer, I get a feel- oh, this is what I need to do. Or, yes, I'm on the right track and it never gets articulated, you might say, it's just sometimes you just feel because God reacts in many ways. God doesn't just whisper in ears, but God relates many ways. And so I was struck by her other experience, "While I was sleeping a sweet smell. Such a sweet smell came into my room." Well, I'm impressed with Shelly, one could doubt this, that this means anything, but I'm impressed with Shelly that she recognizes- ah, this is God present to me. This is God's presence. And a lot of people who want to hear from God have a preconception about what that will involve. And when I say, well, sometimes I just feel, I can just kind of feel, yes, I'm in sync, you know, And I feel that assurance, and I think we all sometimes we don't put God as part of it. I feel I'm acting with integrity, acting according to my, say, my true self or what my core self wants me to do. And well, that's one of the ways God communicates is through just your own inner sense of what is the pit of your stomach telling you? At one point, I'm told the voice of the body is also the voice of God or something. Listen, listen to your body, I'm told, it is also the voice of God. So you pay attention to all of this and recognize it as a divine presence.
Scott Langdon [00:16:44] Something that Shelly struggles with that I struggle with still, I feel like a lot of us do, is this notion that when things are going badly, that God is going away from us because of that. So punishing us or whatever. I think about that as the Job syndrome, Job from the Bible, who had all these things happen and his friends are saying, "Oh, it's because you've been terrible." And he, "I can't think of what I've done." His wife says, "Curse God and die." And he says, "I can't do that." But this idea that there must be something wrong with my life, I'm doing something wrong. And we as you just mentioned, there are things that we choose to do, even though we feel like this just doesn't-- but we do it anyway. And it just the bad feeling accompanies it or it causes suffering either in ourselves or in others or both, and we realize that that's happening. And so, sometimes when things go poorly, we think, God, where are you? And then we start to think, God isn't listening. God isn't listening and God isn't responding. I used to hear God. Now I'm not. What did I do wrong? What do I have to do to correct it? What is it that needs to happen for it to be right? And that's where Shelly is in several different times. In fact, the letter really starts out like that. She was in a very difficult time with her children and the father taking her to court. She was at a very low time, so she called out to God. Then there was another time things were going very difficult she calls out to God, and then eventually with her mother and being sick, it was, what am I doing that's wrong? And so that aspect of a relationship with God can be also misinterpreted. I feel like this is a misinterpretation.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:18:42] In what way Scott, a misinterpretation?
Scott Langdon [00:18:45] Well, I mean, it is a misinterpretation because God really is never gone. God has never gone anywhere. So it's false information to say God has gone away. I just feel like that's incorrect thinking, you know, and I don't mean like, you know, this is good theology, bad theology. It's just if the essence of who we are, the essential nature of us is essentially God, there is no place God can be that we are not. We've basically said that a million times, and yet knowing that, being here in the world, we still have the feelings of being separate. We still have sometimes those feelings and they are connected often to when things are difficult and hard. When things are going great, and babies are born healthy and everyone's wonderful, we think, "Praise God, thank God everything's great, God is wonderful," and things go wrong, we say, "God, where are you?" This relationship aspect of things makes it very difficult to be in tandem with God because of the feeling of being separate.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:19:52] Well, that's one element of it. I think another thing I think is sort of a theological mistake, though it's a very pervasive one, is the God is a rescue helicopter idea. The idea that the purpose of prayer is not thy will be done, but my will be done. This is what I want. I want my mother to live. That's her final crisis. I want my mother to live. I want her to be immortal, you know. And from one of the things I'm told right up front and I'm very puzzled, I started out praying about asking God about standard beliefs I'd grown up with and standard theologies always say God is omnipotent, God is omniscient and God is omnibenevolent. And those almost all combined create almost impossible contradictions. You know? Why didn't God make the world way, way better than it is? Not just saving Shelly's mother, but just making a world without disease, and so there's a lot of prayer, so I find that very puzzling upfront. And God doesn't exactly deny the three, what are called the three O's- the three omnis. But each one well, not exactly. Not exactly omnipotent. It's not that God is powerless. How could God? It's almost as if the world is the body of God or something. But God does not intervene in that way, and on the whole. Though God seems to sometimes. So that's part of the puzzle. God sometimes seems to save a situation, or at least put a thumb on the scale of the laws of nature. Why doesn't God do it for Shelly's mother? So, I think that's one view that has to be given up. The aim of prayer, I almost never pray for something. I do it if a friend asked me to pray for them. I would have if Shelly had asked me to pray for my mother to get better, I would have done that. I would have asked God, please, in whatever way is appropriate, please intervene. Please save Shelly's mother. But for myself, I only ask, "Lord, what do You want me to do today?" And it's ideal to pray multiple times of the day. What do you want me to do next? I only rarely quite do that, although I'm always somewhat implicitly doing it, and I think you are too. Scott. You're kind of keep an ear cocked, as it were. Part of your mind as trying to pay attention to divine inputs as they come. But I just pray for guidance, and I think that idea that God is mainly there to help you out in crises, that's a totally understandable attitude. So I'm not criticizing anyone who thinks that and it fits with what they probably been taught, but it does end up not only blaming God for things that are really not within God's reach. I'm told God does not alter the laws of nature for example, gravity is what gravity is, and God does not alter, keep us from being organic beings, therefore liable to sickness, suffering and death, because that's what we are. And our being organic permits a lot more than our being like rocks, just physical or mechanical, but God does not come in as a rescue. And so we blame God as Job's comforters tell him to do. He's saying, no, I didn't do anything wrong. At the same time, they want him to be angry at God. And no, he's not quite angry either. He's just puzzled is my reading of that? Oh, but the other thing is, it makes you feel God is not present. It makes you feel God is not present. God doesn't save my mother. Then God must have turned God's back to me. And I've noticed if you're a good person, you blame yourself. I've noticed bad people can go through making one horrible mess out of another, that they never blame themselves, they blame everybody else. But the good person, reflective, the person of conscience, tends to feel, I must have done something wrong. But no, if you think of how it all really works, then you haven't done anything wrong. As far as I can tell. Shelly is a very wonderful person, you know, and even kind enough to send a final response, which almost nobody ever does after I make a comment. But she sent a kind of thank you at the end. Well, that's a very nice person.
Scott Langdon [00:25:30] Going back to the relationship analogy, whether it's a spouse, a romantic partner or whatever it is, the one who complains- you don't say you love me anymore, and perhaps the partner might say, "Well, I've never been big on saying the three words. You know that. Yet, after all this time that we've been together, have I not come home every night to you? Have I not remembered your birthday? Have I not brought you flowers every Wednesday? Have I--" You know what I mean? And so it's when the person says, "You never say you love me," and then they step back for a second and go, "Oh, he's always here every night, he sends me flowers, those little cards," or, you know, maybe it's none of that. Maybe it's just he goes to his job every single day and brings home the pay, whatever it is, can I look away from what I think you should say to me to express your love or not even just say, but I have a way that you need to communicate that to me, and if it's not that, then I can't hear it. And I feel like I do that often with God. God, I want you to tell me you love me. And God is like, will you look around, son? Look at your dog. Look at your children, your wife. Look at how you've started going to the boxing gym and feeling great about relationships, the work that you are getting, all of those things. It's like, don't you see? I'm here everywhere all the time, as God has pointed out to you.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:27:11] Well, that's a wonderful analogy, Scott. One of the things that also struck me in Shelly's communication where is she-- God, she has this problem of God not telling her often enough that He loves her, but then one point she doesn't mention God is part of the story at all. She just goes later, I got married to a wonderful man, and so that just popped out of nowhere. Oh! Here comes this wonderful-- I had a bad relationship and I prayed, God forgive me, and so but now married to a wonderful man, it doesn't occur to her that God might have put the thumb on the scales to help make that happen. And of course, that's how I felt when I fell in love with Abigail. I didn't know who was responsible for this because I didn't have any God conceptions, you might say. But I knew it wasn't me. That's all I noticed, that this the most wonderful blessing to find the one Miss Right in the whole universe for me, you know? And it just came into my life as a gift. Like finding the winning lottery ticket on my doorstep or something. And so I thought that I should say a prayer of thanks to whomever, whatever, maybe a benign universe, a universe smiling on Jerry that day. I didn't worry over that. I just expressed my feeling. But she doesn't--This is one point where it doesn't seem to occur to Shelly to pause over that question. How did this happen? What was the change? Bad relationship. You got a father to her kids, suing her over and over and draining her poor, meager funds dry, and then she's in a bad relationship and prays again, and even for that bad relationship, what does poor Shelly being a good person, say? "Oh, please, God forgive me." As if she's doing something wrong, but I guess she wasn't hearing from God either, because she, "Let me-- I want to hear you." And then the sweet smell comes. And then she's married to a wonderful man, and you think, God, did he leave the stage? Because you're an actor. Did God exit the stage left and we didn't notice? Why isn't God still standing there? And she has a wonderful husband, and God smiling, you know, and celebrating. And then she starts going to the little church with her new husband. So the marriage is not only a wonderful man, but it brings her back into her spiritual life.
Scott Langdon [00:29:52] Yeah, that analogy, you know, did God leave the stage? Well, I would say God is all of the actors and the director and the playwright. So there's nowhere, of course, that God isn't. And yet, as we say, God is all of those separate things. So you say, you know, God, where are you? I'm seeking you. I don't know where you are. What we're saying is I don't feel love. I feel like love is gone away. And so, God, where are you is where is love? And if someone comes along like this, this wonderful man, in the personhood in the agency, as we have said of this man, is in one sense, God's answer. There are relationships in my life that are estranged currently that I long to have healed and mended. And yet it seems like in the meantime, like God sent Watson my dog to me.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:30:56] Yes! Your wonderful dog!
Scott Langdon [00:30:56] Yeah. When I feel like I'm so lonely, where is God, well, you know, your wife loves you, and I say, "I know, I know." And yet why do I still feel lonely? That doesn't make sense. I know I'm loved and then, Watson, will come along and just come up against me, or we'll go for a walk. I don't want to say personhood, he's a dog, but in the, through the agency of this animal, God's love is shining through to me as a remembrance, a reminder of what love, quite frankly, feels like. The peace, the ease, the knowing, the comfort of it's not circumstantial. It doesn't matter what my circumstances are, that feeling of connectedness is unmistakably true and real and we long for it.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:31:51] Yeah. And I'm struck there, Scott, because I know you often talk about Watson. If there's something on your mind, you take a walk with Watson. And I don't know if you talk out loud to Watson, you might well, people talk out loud to themselves, so why not to your dog? And I know Laura Buck responds the same way. I think the current dog she has was the first one ever in her life. But she said of her dog, “I've learned so much from him.”
Scott Langdon [00:32:14] Mm hmm.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:32:15] “He's an old soul.” Not being a dog person, I only have to, you know, imagine what that means. But I notice in these cases, and her descriptions much like it, the empathy of the dog, the dog responds to your moods way more perceptively than any human being does, because they've got all this other stuff in their heads, after all. And that's an amazing trait. And empathy is one of the great capabilities of any living creature. You know, it's amazing capability of human beings to have empathy that enables you to play different characters, that enables the great novelist Tolstoy to write about Anna Karenina. He's not at all like Anna Karenina, but he can empathize with that kind of woman and make her the centerpiece of maybe the greatest novel ever. So that empathy is an amazing trait. These wonderful little creatures, you know, have empathy and we don't ask-- you do not ask Watson, "Please speak to me. If I can't hear you, you're not present to me." And with Watson, you don't expect that, but with God you do. People do. And so often when people are feeling well, I don't find God anywhere, it's as if they're not taking in God where God is presence. You know, like in Watson, in the loving people in your life, in many other things in your life, just in a good stage production, you know, the divine is present there. And I guess the main message there is pay attention and take it in. So, here Shelly missed something, she gets married to a wonderful man. It does not occur to her, at least as far as she's writing here, we don't know the rest of her thoughts, but at least here, it does not seem to occur to her, "Thank you, Lord, for sending this man to me. For opening my heart to him. His heart to mine. Thank you, Lord."
Scott Langdon [00:34:40] Thank you for listening to God: An Autobiography, The Podcast. Subscribe for free today wherever you listen to your podcasts and hear a new episode every week. You can hear the complete dramatic adaptation of God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher by Jerry L. Martin by beginning with episode one of our podcast and listening through its conclusion with Episode 44. You can read the original true story in the book from which this podcast is adapted, God: An Autobiography, As Told to a Philosopher, available now at amazon.com, and always at godanautobiography.com. Pick up your own copy today. If you have any questions about this or any other episode, please email us at questions@godanautobiography.com, and experience the world from God's perspective as it was told to a philosopher. This is Scott Langdon. I'll see you next time.