37. I Talk To Jesus About Ministry And Message | Dramatic Adaptation Of God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher [Part 37]

"You cannot force people to listen, to understand, to open their hearts, to turn from the things of this world toward God. All one can do is to proclaim the message."

Welcome to God: An Autobiography, The Podcast. A dramatic adaptation and continuing discussion of the book God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher by Jerry L. Martin.

He was a lifelong agnostic, but one day he had an occasion to pray. To his vast surprise, God answered- in words. Being a philosopher, he had a lot of questions, and God had a lot to tell him.

Read God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher.

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Transcript

JLM

This is a different Jesus than I had ever heard about--a normal kid growing up, just a bit unlike the other kids, then being "converted" by John and trodding the countryside teaching and preaching--remarkable in being so unremarkable, devoid of a celestial light show. 

Jesus's life is simple, straightforward, and human, whatever other dimensions it may have had.

[brief interim]

I asked Jesus about an incident I found disturbing. 

JERRY

According to Mark, your mother and brothers arrive and call for you. You respond, 'Who are my mother and my brothers?' And, looking at those around you, 'Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.' Why do you disrespect your own family?

JESUS

There is a context here. My family had listened to the rumors that I had gone mad and had, basically, come to take me away. At that moment, they were listening to the crowd, not to God. And they were, in effect, rejecting--disowning--me, the me I had become. I had to affirm my primary attachment, which was to God and God's people.

[brief interim]

JERRY

Mark 4 is also disturbing. You say your teaching is only for the select few, some kind of elite: 'To you has been given the secret - or mystery - of the Kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables; in order that they may indeed listen, but not understand; so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.' You don't want them to understand!

JESUS

My disciples had been like fertile soil. They had absorbed my message, had opened their hearts, and received the word and spirit of the Lord. They had been given the secret or mystery of the Kingdom of God. Unfortunately, those outside often listened with a closed heart or clouded mind and heard but did not understand. I was not keeping anything from them. The condition of their souls and their lack of attention kept them from understanding.

JERRY

Okay, I see. The next passage seems to say this very thing: "Let anyone with ears to hear listen!"

JESUS

Yes, you cannot force people to listen, to understand, to open their hearts, to turn from the things of this world toward God. All one can do is to proclaim the message.

JERRY

But, again, Mark reports that Jesus spoke only in parables to the public but "explained everything in private to his disciples."

JESUS

That just means that advanced pupils get advanced lessons. You speak in simple generalizations in a freshman lecture class. You dissect, qualify, and criticize those same generalizations in a graduate course. That does not mean that you are keeping a secret from the freshmen.

[brief interim]

JERRY

Mark 6 tells the story of the loaves and fishes: 'How many loaves have you?' 'Five, and two fish.' Jesus 'looked up to heaven, and blessed and broke the loaves, and gave them to his disciples to set before the people. . . . And all ate and were filled.'

JLM

This time I was answered, not by Jesus, but by God.

GOD

The message to you, Jerry, personally, is that you have enough loaves and fishes. Whatever you have I will multiply, and it will reach a great audience, and you will be amazed. Jesus was just a man. How many "loaves and fishes" do you think he had, and yet I blessed him, and look at how many people he reached and reaches still.

JERRY

What are You telling me?

GOD

Don't doubt yourself. Don't feel anxiety every time you take up My work.

JLM

Of course, I felt anxious! Talking with God still seemed really weird to me, and the task I was given seemed completely beyond my capacity. I had no scholarly background in religion. I was reading all these world scriptures for the first time or, in the case of Mark, the second time. True insights require years of study in the original languages.

GOD

Get it deep into your soul that you are My quill and I am the author. You do not need to bring anything to the table more than what you are. 

[interim]

JERRY

Lord, I have the sense that I should focus on Jesus' message of love--and let it into my own heart. I need to set aside my uneasy feelings with 'washed in the blood' and other echoes of my childhood. Is that right, Lord?

GOD

Both points are correct. Also, listen to Jesus' human voice. At this point, also bracket our earlier prayers, which were contaminated in various ways.

JLM

Apparently, earlier prayers, perhaps because I didn't yet know what questions to ask or how to understand the answers, were less authoritative and should be understood in the context of later prayers. Then Jesus spoke to me:

JESUS

Don't be so worried about all this. Don't be too wedded to the scripture. This is not exegesis that we're doing. You know what I am about, which is the healing power of love. You cannot mend the world without love. It is the force that holds things together. I am the embodiment of love. I know that sounds strange to you, but it just means that I have an unusual capacity for selfless love, care, kindness, tenderness, compassion.

Nevertheless, reading through the record of my life is a good way to tune in to who I am and to hear my voice accurately. Just don't get fixated on the words. It is not helpful for me to "correct" the scriptures. That is not what we are about.

JLM

So I went on. 

[interim]

JERRY

In Chapter 5, Mark tells the bizarre story of a man who 'lived among the tombs,' howling night and day. You commanded the unclean spirits to come out. They went into the swine instead, who then 'rushed down the steep bank' and were 'drowned in the sea.' When folks saw the man returned to 'his right mind,' they were 'afraid' and 'begged' you to leave.

JESUS

Yes, there is a deeper level here. People are comfortable living with evil, with sin. A genuinely good person has enormous power. He or she holds up a mirror to them, and they are afraid. We are all afraid to be better than we are. This is a major reason it is so difficult. To eat less, drink less, give up womanizing or ambition is threatening to a person and to those around them.  People don't want to be called to a higher standard. So, they will avoid the good person or send them away.

[brief interim]

JERRY

A sick woman touched your cloak and was instantly healed. You felt that 'power had gone forth' from you, and you said to her, 'Daughter, your faith has made you well.' This whole business of miracles--loaves and fishes, walking on water, calming the sea, and healing people--is disturbing to us moderns. Are we to take these things literally?

JESUS

Miracles are not well understood because they are not investigated. They are outside your scientific paradigms. They are simply dismissed, even when there are reputable witnesses. Miracles are frequent occurrences. They happen within the laws of nature, but those laws are not well understood currently. A more comprehensive science may evolve.

[brief interim]

JERRY

Are some of these stories about you exaggerated in subsequent retelling?

JESUS

Of course, that is what such a story is. These were iconic moments that were told and retold and simplified and made more dramatic in the retelling.

[brief interim]

JERRY

When you have performed a miracle, you mysteriously tell people not to tell anyone, as if you are hiding your identity as the Son of God.

JESUS

That was not the point. I was not there to be a miracle-doer. That was not my message. The real reason people noted my miracles, which were not alone of their kind . . .

JLM

Historians say there were other well-known miracle-workers at the time.

JESUS

. . . is that my presence moved them and, whether they understood my message or not, they sensed its importance and gravity. They felt my love. But when they came to tell others about me, they could not communicate those intangibles, so they told about the miracles, which were easy to tell and easy to listen to.

[brief interim]

JERRY

As you teach in the synagogue, people start asking, 'Where did this man get all this?' and belittling you--'Is not this the carpenter?'--and 'they took offense at him.'

JESUS

Yes, people want to reject a higher understanding, so they attack the messenger, try to discredit him or her. There is an inequality created between two people when one has wisdom that the other lacks, and the inferior person chafes and rejects the wisdom and its messenger. Think of Socrates and his fate.

(MUSIC)

CHAPTER 54

JERRY

The Pharisees attacked your disciples for not following the traditional practice of washing hands before eating. In response, you cited Isaiah's condemnation of 'teaching human precepts as doctrines.'

JESUS

No, that didn't happen. I sometimes objected to people obeying rules but not being faithful to God, but the broad theme of faith versus rules or ritualistic conformity was not a major theme of mine. That was developed by my followers as a critique of those Jews who did not follow me. Those Jews were wrong not to do so, but ritualism was not the reason. I did preach a radical message. But it was a radical message of love.

JERRY

Why would that disturb people?

JESUS

It was love predicated on a powerful direct relationship to God, which is the source or empowerment of all love.

[interim]

JERRY

You challenged the idea that some foods are unclean: 'There is nothing outside a person that by going in can defile, but the things that come out are what defile.'

JESUS

Yes, that was a message. The Kingdom of God is the presence of non-ego-based love, which requires detachment from desires. Rules restricting eating can be a means to detachment, or they can become attachments of their own. The message is to focus on what is inside, the attunement of the soul to God.

JERRY

Your message seems a lot like the Prophets, and no more 'anti-Jewish' than they were.

JESUS

The Prophets were tremendous critics of Jewish custom, and they had a strong sense of the inner dimension, the transcendent dimension, of religion. They are instructive.

[interim]

JERRY

Mark 8 says that you taught the disciples that the Son of Man must 'undergo great suffering . . . and be killed, and after three days rise again.’

JESUS

No, but I did talk about suffering. Suffering is sacrifice. It is our gift to God. But connecting this with my death was done later. I did not say these things.

[interim]

JERRY

Why the threat: 'Those who are ashamed of me and of my words . . . of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory'?

JESUS

It is not a threat, though it may have been heard that way. It was a fact like karma: Here are the consequences of your decisions. When the glory comes--when human beings are in union with God--you'll be left out.

JERRY

Are we talking about the end of time?

JESUS

No, we are talking about in each person's life, right now.

JERRY

Why make things so personal to you? Is it because people need a concrete person to believe in?

JESUS

No, think about why it could be.

JERRY

Well, you could actually be God.

JESUS

That’s right.  To believe in me is to believe in God. It is a transitive relationship.

[brief interim]

JERRY

Jesus, what does it mean to believe 'in' you? Is it belief in the proposition that you are God?

JESUS

Yes and No. It is a practice that may presuppose a proposition. The practice is something like yoga, self-denial, identity with God, putting away things of this world, and the like. The presupposition may be belief that I am God.

JERRY

But why should belief in you mean a set of practices--or put it the other way, why should a set of practices be expressed as 'believing in you'?

JESUS

Think of those cases where you achieve a mental attitude by focusing on something concrete.

JERRY

I was told by a black belt in karate that the only way you can drive your hand through a pile of bricks is by believing in your guru. What he does, you do.

JESUS

Believe in my message, believe in me totally, and surrender yourself to me and my way, and you will be saved and have eternal life.

JERRY

Why put it in terms of 'eternal life'?

JESUS

What one wants is emancipation from the sufferings of this life--not Nirvana in my message, but a sense of transcending this life into something timeless and permanent, which is accurate--the Self beyond the self.

JLM

I was disturbed by two things here. First, it was jarring to hear Jesus talking about the Self beyond the self.  Second, it sounded like the bait and switch I had earlier accused God of--appearing to promise things He doesn't deliver. The next passage is a perfect example.

JERRY

You told a crowd that included your disciples, 'Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the Kingdom of God has come with power.' This sounds like a promise of immortal life here on earth.

JESUS

No, they understood me, at least the ones to whom this remark was addressed, better than that. Anyone fully enlightened does not "taste death." Death is no evil for them. They understand the fullness of life.

JERRY

What about the ordinary folks? Surely, they thought you were promising them they would not die but would live on.

JESUS

They do live on.

JERRY

Only after dying--whether they believe in you or not.

JESUS

I can communicate only as much as I can communicate. I cannot be responsible for what they cannot understand.

JLM

This comment seemed like a petulant excuse, blaming the audience for his misleading them. I wondered if my receptors had skipped to the wrong frequency.

JERRY

That sounds harsh and elitist.

JESUS

No, each person understands the amount, and in the way, he or she is capable of. That is okay. That is how it is supposed to be. Hence, my message is heard on many different levels, in different ways, and with different imports and implications. There is nothing wrong with that. It is how life works.

JLM

I wasn't sure if that was a sufficient explanation, but I went on. 

[interim]

JERRY

On a high mountain with Peter, James, and John, you were 'transfigured before them' and your clothes were 'dazzling white.' Isn't this just a metaphor for the light of God shining through you?

JESUS

Gurus, saints, and so forth, can do miraculous things. Do not feel you have to give a demythologized account. All these things are possible.

JERRY

Then what does 'transfigured' mean?

JESUS

It means something like translucent, dazzling, transparent, light shining through as a finely spun bulb. It is a physical phenomenon--energy and power are emitted.

JERRY

What are you communicating?

JESUS

Go back to Mark 9.

JERRY

Some of you 'will not taste death until they see that the Kingdom of God has come with power.'

JLM

Here God answered,

GOD

I am saying, through Jesus, a very perfect transmitter on this occasion, that in their lives, they will find the Kingdom of God, the transfiguring experience of the Divine.

JERRY

But, Lord, why put it as if they are not going to die?

GOD

Look at the language again.

JERRY

Well, yes, it just says this will happen during their lifetimes. But it sounds as if the Kingdom of God is a Second Coming, apocalypse, or something like that.

GOD

No, it doesn't. You are reading that in. The Kingdom of God is the reception into the soul of God's presence. It occurs to people during this lifetime, not afterwards and not at the end of history. 

I am using Jesus both as the messenger--he is an Elijah--and as an exemplar--he is God. By participating in him, they can participate in Me.

[brief interim]

JERRY

Mark goes on to say, that 'there appeared to them'--to Peter, James, and John--'Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus.' What were You communicating there? Did this happen?

GOD

Yes, not just the image, but the souls of Elijah and Moses. They were important for giving the viewers the sanction of the tradition they understood.

JERRY

Were they actually talking with Jesus?

GOD

Yes, you can talk to them too. Dead souls are always available.

JLM

Some time after these prayers began, my brother, who died in infancy, came to me in a dream and told me he was sorry for any suffering his death had caused. If one credits this kind of experience, the universe must be very complex and certainly not what common sense or current science would expect.

(MUSIC)

CHAPTER 55

JERRY

Lord, there was a boy who had been possessed with a bad spirit since childhood. The disciples tried to cast it out and failed. Jesus is asked to do it 'if you are able.' Jesus responds, 'If you are able! -- All things can be done for the one who believes.'

GOD

Nothing is beyond what your loving Father will give you. All is possible. The most amazing things are possible.

JERRY

As the hymn says, 'only believe'?

GOD

You need to have the right relationship to God. It is not a matter of superficial belief or attachment. It is a matter of being deeply in conformity with My will.

JERRY

Lord, are You saying that, for the person in tune with You, healings and so forth are possible?

GOD

I am saying they are not beyond what I would want to give. Whether a certain event is possible and fitting is a more complex matter, but there is certainly no obstacle in physical laws or the like.

[brief interim]

JERRY

The boy's father then cries out, 'I believe; help my unbelief,' which sounds self-contradictory.

GOD

He has prayed the right prayer. He has sought help for connecting with God. This is the most important thing. It is not as contradictory as it appears. He affirms his connection with God, but he knows it is tenuous, fragile, vulnerable, and so he asks that it be strengthened and secured.

[brief interim]

JLM

Sometimes I was told that certain scriptures were inaccurate--not a surprise to a biblical scholar perhaps, but certainly not what I was taught growing up. It always made me nervous. One instance is in Mark 9.

JERRY

Lord, Jesus tells his disciples that he would be 'betrayed into human hands, and they will kill him, and three days after being killed, he will rise again.'

GOD

No, this was invented after his death.

JLM

Invented? This is a central part of the official story. But I prayed on.

JERRY

Next the disciples are arguing about who is greatest. Jesus takes a child into his arms and says, 'Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes not me but the one who sent me.'

GOD

Yes, this is when Jesus is My full representative, is exemplary. He stands for Me. I am fully present in him. I am communicating in a concrete human being My love and the path of salvation. If they follow him, and fully take in his message, they relate to Me, and are of the Kingdom of God, and transcend death. 

[interim]

JERRY

Why does Jesus always talk in parables? That makes it so hard to understand.

GOD

Parables are a training. You have to work to understand them, and this itself opens and develops the soul. Why does a psychotherapist not just give you the answers? Why doesn't the Socratic teacher? 

[brief interim]

JERRY

A man asks Jesus, 'What must I do to inherit eternal life?' He has kept the commandments all his life. Jesus says there is one more thing he needs to do, 'sell what you own and give the money to the poor.' The man is shocked and goes away grieving, 'for he had many possessions.'

GOD

This was indeed a good man, who kept the law and lived morally and decently, and Jesus loves this, as I do. It is sincere and faithful and rises above selfishness. But it is not enough. One must detach from all desires, and this is the point of Jesus telling him to give away his wealth. The fact that the man is dejected shows that he is in fact attached to his possessions.

JERRY

Hearing how hard it all is, the people say to one another, 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus replies, 'For mortals it is impossible, but not for God. For God, all things are possible.'

GOD

Yes, this is not a case where one pulls oneself up by one's boot straps. It can only be done by union with God. Union with God is both the end and the means. This is what later theologians call grace. People need to reach out to Me, but I also reach out to them. They need only to let themselves "fall into" My hands.

JERRY

Then Jesus tells James and John they will have to 'be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with'--that they will have to go through the spiritual process Jesus has gone through--'for the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.'

GOD

Yes, and "to give his life a ransom for many" merely meant to devote his life to the enlightenment of others, like a Bodhisattva.

JLM

A Bodhisattva is a fully enlightened Buddhist who, instead of entering Nirvana, stays behind to save others. 

JERRY

Like a Bodhisattva?

GOD

Yes, Jesus is a Bodhisattva.

(MUSIC)

                               (THE END)