GOD: An Autobiography, As Told to a Philosopher - The Podcast
GOD: An Autobiography, As Told to a Philosopher - The Podcast
245. Jerry & Abigail: An Intimate Dialogue – The New Axial Age & The Future of Faith
In this episode, Jerry and Abigail return for their fourth conversation in the series Jerry & Abigail: An Intimate Dialogue, exploring the most profound theme of God: An Autobiography as Told to a Philosopher: the New Axial Age.
The term “Axial Age,” introduced by philosopher Karl Jaspers, describes the pivotal era when some of the world’s greatest spiritual figures appeared within a few centuries of one another: Socrates, the Hebrew prophets, the Buddha, Confucius, and the sages of the Upanishads.
Humanity shifted on its spiritual axis, developing new ways of thinking, deeper moral insights, and new pathways to the divine. Now, Jerry shares that God revealed to him we stand on the threshold of another great transformation, a new spiritual era filled with both peril and promise.
Together, Jerry and Abigail ask what this might mean for religions and traditions born in the first Axial Age. Are they fading, losing their power to hold communities together, as God suggests, while a new spirituality rises in diverse, often fragmented ways?
Abigail speaks of her profound yet complex relationship with Judaism, her spiritual experiences in India, her affection for Gandhi, and her surprising love of country gospel. Jerry recalls his own journey from Southern Baptist and Pentecostal childhood through philosophy into a direct encounter with God.
Their conversation moves between history, theology, and personal testimony, showing how ancient wisdom and modern lives intertwine. They consider the Jewish vocation of chronology and covenant, the Hindu pursuit of Atman and Brahman, and the universal human calling to partner with God in history.
Through all of this, one theme emerges as both anchor and challenge: to be truthful—to reality, to God, and to oneself.
Are we living through a moment of spiritual collapse or the birth of something radically new?
Other Series:
The podcast began with the Dramatic Adaptation of the book and now has several series:
The Life Wisdom Project – Spiritual insights on living a wiser, more meaningful life.
From God to Jerry to You – Divine messages and breakthroughs for seekers.
Two Philosophers Wrestle With God – A dialogue on God, truth, and reason.
Jerry & Abigail: An Intimate Dialogue – Love, faith, and divine presence in partnership.
What’s Your Spiritual Story – Real stories of people changed by encounters with God.
What’s On Our Mind – Reflections from Jerry and Scott on recent episodes.
What’s On Your Mind – Listener questions, divine answers, and open dialogue.
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Scott Langdon 00:17: This is God: An Autobiography, The Podcast, a dramatic adaptation and continuing discussion of the book God: An Autobiography as Told to a Philosopher by Jerry L Martin. He was a lifelong agnostic, but one day he had an occasion to pray. To his vast surprise, God answered in words. Being a philosopher, he had a lot of questions and God had a lot to tell him.
Scott Langdon 01:10: I'm Scott Langdon and this week, Jerry and Abigail return for their fourth conversation for our series Jerry and Abigail: An Intimate Dialogue. In this edition, Jerry and Abigail discuss this idea of a new axial age that God spoke about to Jerry. It's very clear that we are living in an age of great change. We can see this very clearly if we simply pause and step back for just a moment. But what does this mean for religious traditions and belief systems and ways of making meaning out of our human experience that were born out of the first axial age? Are they to simply dissolve or be made new in some way, or does God have something more inclusive in mind? Well, let's listen in. Here's Jerry and Abigail. I hope you enjoy the episode.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 02:02 Well, hi, sweetheart, we're going to be doing a conversation, an intimate dialogue, on a big, big topic. What's the nature of the big picture today? And I put it that way because, as you know, toward the end of God: An Autobiography, I'm told we're on the threshold of a new spiritual era, a new axial age. We can talk in a moment of what an axial age, what that means. But I know I was told at the very beginning of the book I was wondering why is God telling me this stuff now? Because it seemed like kind of a big revelation. You know this extended set of communications and why. You know what's the occasion, because we've had a long history of humanity and God and religions and revelations and so on. Why this now? And I was told, the old religions are God didn't use the language losing steam, but that was roughly the meaning. They don't hold the conviction they used to have, they're kind of coming apart. And yet there is a spiritual urge, God said that's almost rising. And yet the new spirituality God went on in telling me, the new spirituality is all over the place and very questionable and sometimes destructive and demonic. And so one almost notices if we're going to be on the eve of some big change, the first thing that you notice is things are kind of falling apart or fading away, disintegrating beneath our feet, through our fingers now. And an Axial Age means, roughly speaking, it was Karl Jaspers, the great German philosopher, Karl Jaspers introduced this because he noticed there was a time in human history which Socrates and the Hebrew prophets and the seers of the Upanishads in India and Buddha, Confucius and others, all were within a few hundred years of each other and it represented some general rising level of human consciousness. You know, people were thinking and understanding their experience in a new way and the world shifted to a new axis culturally. And so God says well, that's what's going to happen, or it seems to be. We're on the threshold. As Yogi Berra said, it's very hard to predict things, especially about the future. Well, he really nailed that one, because we can never quite say what's going to happen. But God tells me we're on the threshold, which certainly means full of potentiality for a new spiritual era, a new axial age. But I don't know about you, sweetheart, but when I look around I'm first struck by the first part of what God said. You know it does feel as if things are falling apart.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 05:23: I know our good friend, the retired Presbyterian minister Tom Eggebeen, said this past year, in 20 years from now there might be no Presbyterian church. Well, yikes, we've kind of lived by these institutions and the norms they establish, the traditions they preserve, the sacred scriptures they preserve the great religious thinkers, seers, prophets, as well as spiritual disciplines and community, you know, for when you're born, you get married, you die. These religious institutions are there to help you understand the experience and in fact to help you live through them, to live through them with you.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 06:10: So I know one student I'm always wanting to throw off the walls and so forth, but a student at the end of my talk said, well, shouldn't we just get rid of the religions? And I said, oh no, without them we would know nothing. They preserved all of the things I just named. We need to be grateful for that preservation and we don't want to just wipe the slate clean, as if we're going to all become cultural neonates again and know nothing about anything. But anyway, when you look at the current scene, sweetheart, you know I can easily, you look and one sees peril and promise. I instinctively, somehow like Tom Eggebeen a bit, notice the peril at first, things fall, the title of a good novel, all fall apart, things fall apart.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 07:07: I have both a sense of relaxing of boundaries whose rationale no longer seems plausible, especially boundaries that have to do with heaven and hell, salvation and redemption on the one hand, exclusion and perdition on the other. People don't seem to want to consign each other especially as they can see each other better across the globe to those compartments anymore, neither the self-complacency of the heavenward bound nor the anticipatory contempt for those who are going to hell. And so, in a sense, the porousness of the old boundaries, the newly permissible permeability of religious boundaries, seems to me in general natural and beneficial. There are institutional questions. What are you going to do with those beautiful New England churches with their steeples? And what are you going to do with those nice seminaries which are producing the guys who are supposed to stand in the pit of the interior of such churches and preach every Sunday, and nobody's going to be there, except maybe for the funeral or the wedding, and even then you don't know if they're going to be there. If they're going to be there, I have a particular placement in this story, and it's sort of dancing on the head of a pin, because I'm intensely, in some sense, Jewish, very Jewish, not observant. Okay, that kicks me out for various, you know, listeners and hospitable to all these religious possibilities, some of which I myself have explored before noticing that, hey, it's my business in this life to be Jewish. And let me just say a moment, give a moment to what I mean by the Jewish contribution, because I can put it in quite non-denominational terms so that any number can play. But I do think it's a very important contribution. It's chronology. The biblical religion, Hebrew biblical religion has a beginning and a sequence and a before and after and after that and after that, and at no point does it lose contact with the dates. It might have mystical escapism or mystical seriousness, I don't know. It's hospitable.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 11:13: Certain factions accepted to the idea that you don't have to be Jewish to get in good with God. I think there's nothing that marks Job as an Israelite and yet he's found by God and the devil alike. That makes it practically unanimous in the other world as the most righteous character on earth. And likewise the righteous non-Jew is as good as the high priest, if the high priest is supposed to be good. So it isn't a kind of spiritual exclusivism, but it's a spiritual persistence and the persistence of the desire, through every incarnation and new configuration.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 12:12: The desire to erase Jews from the story of history or the story of theology is, think, not found, at least in my experience, not found among people who will accept their own chronological story. They revised those views. What part the divine played in the unfolding of who they were, who they are and who they might be. All that, if you can live with all that, you won't hate Jews. So I feel I'm sort of stationed on one side of the big picture and you know I might prefer and it might be much more comfortable to fade into the generality of mankind. But I've tried that and it doesn't… It's not authentic for me.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 13:23: Yes. That's a good example, sweetheart, of what our world is now, here. You're Jewish and very Jewish, you might say in your own way, but not in somebody else's way, perhaps in terms of being observant and knowing Hebrew backward and forward, and so forth, you know just the best words you might say. That's the way of the world these days. What I was told about the ancient people of Israel, God tells me, I gave them a covenant and to be my partners in history, which is your chronological element. You know, we're living on the—I sometimes think of it as the horizontal and some religions are more about the vertical, they're about the transcendent. And what isn't here? The Jewish you know… look at the story in the Hebrew Testament the Old Testament, as I grew up calling it and it's one event after another and with people doing right and wrong and God intervening and chastising or prompting or giving them a law, you know, and a covenant, and okay, we'll follow the covenant. And then you know, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, because that's human nature and that's the story. That is the story we're all living, a story in that sense, with God as both witness and partner, and that's something that we can all learn from. You don't have to be Jewish to say, hey, that's kind of a good point. Shouldn't I be sort of God's partner? Shouldn't I figure out what God wants me to do and try to do it? You know, not let the side down? And at the same time God said in that very same quote by contrast, I gave to the ancient people of India the concept of the Atman, the understanding of the Atman.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 15:20: The Atman is Brahman and to relate to me, to God, in an interior way. And that's another way. And God points out, you know, I was asking, why are the religions different? Well, He could barely tell the ancient people of Israel to do all of that but also go home, meditate and relate to the Brahman. And he could barely hardly give the seers of the Upanishads and the ancient Hindu saints and sadhus and so forth the task of working with God in history. I mean, they've got their hands full just trying to connect the Atman to the Brahman and to come to that full realization in their lives, to see everything in that light out of the proposition, but to see everything as Brahman. Well, that takes some doing. That takes some doing. And you can't juggle multiple things at the same time, completely disparate things, you might say, all not contradicting each other, but quite, quite disparate. And that's the human story with the divine.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 16:36: Yes, I felt terribly at home in India. I always felt I've loved India, and there was a moment where I guess we were at the place where Gandhi was shot and killed.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 16:56: Yes, yes, we were both in his humble room in a big estate. A humble room of Gandhi that had almost a cot and some tiny side table. But near there, I guess maybe on the same general grounds.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 17:17: I had a sense. Into deep meditation at that moment, I had a sense of a connecting with the Mahatma and that he was near, and spontaneously I called him Bapu which people did, I think it meant father and thanked him for visiting me. So you know, it's really.. There's a sense or porousness, or attempt to find reconcilement between geographically and culturally disparate revelations from God. I don't know where that can go, but it's possible to love more than one tradition and a tradition that is not one's own. I have a love for country gospel.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 18:36: Yes, very Christian.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 18:38: You know that's as Christian as it gets.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 18:40: Country music at its best.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 18:41: Yeah, and I just, I know who holds tomorrow. You know, I just feel it stood by me and it's been with me and I have no clear, certainly no conceptual coherence between, on the one hand, my spontaneous, since childhood love for india, my spontaneous again since childhood (my father was born in louisville and so there's a little bit of, you know, Southern spillover, he liked it too) country music and country gospel and the Jewish element which is totally inscripted in my core identity. Just one example. The first time I'm flying on an El Al plane and we're about to land in Israel.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 19:57: Never have been there before and spontaneously the thought comes into my mind there it is again. There it is again. There it is again. How nice they put cities down this time. Where did that come from? What is that? From reincarnation? I used to be there. I don't know and I didn't make it up. It came into my mind. And we're talking about the native green. We're not talking about pretense. It's not about this is brotherhood week and we'll all pretend to like each other, though in fact we bore each other and can't stand each other, and it's all a false face. It's not Brotherhood Week. These are profound inner strands. I have no coherent account for their compatibility, except that I'm not flying apart and somehow they coexist in the middle of me and I think the Jewish essence is the deepest, or the heart's core, but it doesn't have this almost unaccountable openness.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 21:26: Yeah.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 21:27: It's almost bizarre. I don't know where it comes from. I don't know how to make what a philosopher would call sense of it. You know there's a system to be spun out. I don't know how to do that and I'm not keen to do that because it might sand off some of the clear edges of the experiential connection. You know, I don't want to sand it down and varnish it so that if it's in a system, I have no objection to somebody else trying to do that. Maybe the human mind, faced with disparities that appear to be ultimate, will always try to reconcile the disparities into something that can pass for a coherent coexistence, a coherent coexistence where they don't rationally annihilate each other or give each other a sort of ultimatum. Either my way or my way, somehow they coexist. But I in me, I don't have any clue as to how they coexist. They don't seem to be a war. You know, it's like there wasn't a war, even though I can't account for the coexistence.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 23:55: You have your own unique story, but others have somewhat similar stories in different ways, in the sense that they are just in the course of life, not by setting it out as a project what to make sense of all these religions and worldviews, but just in the course of life. They pick up wisdom here and wisdom there, sometimes a good practice. They're doing yoga or something which has a spiritual side as well as a physical side. It's a complete psychophysical experience and discipline. But wherever it is, I've noticed people on Facebook who just seem like Bible-believing Christians and then one day they're quoting Rumi, the Persian poet, who I guess was a Muslim of some sort, But you know they just don't pause over this. Oh, now let's bring in from a different tradition, Rumi. No, Rumi is part of their world because they've read Rumi and this seemed like a really true quote that was illuminating of something for them.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 24:59: So we all go through and the scholars sometimes talk about the conditions of axial creativity. Some falling apart, some mushing of the boundaries is sort of necessary, you know or everything's going to be frozen in place, and they say nevertheless, some element of that seems to be necessary. What I mean by that is the religious traditions; the moral traditions need to still have sufficient strength, sufficient awareness in people for them to have something to work with as they move to an axial creativity. But what you're pointing out is the message of Radically Personal. Is each person going to do it for themselves? They can band together and do it as groups under various isms come up with their own new way of thinking or things. They pull from the traditions a new way of organizing or putting new labels on them, opening new avenues. And it can go quite beyond just the religions, but everything in your life, your life experience, the literature you read, your psychotherapy, you know whatever…All these. I was reading a lot of Jung recently, yikes of his memoirs and he was an awfully sensitive person and it's halfway the time about thinking he's going insane because he reacts so strongly and deeply to things. But okay, you take in all of these things and put them in the worldview as makes sense for you in your life. That's a key.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 26:55: There's often a problem and it's part of, I think, God's objection to the new spirituality is it's just kind of all over the place and people picking and choosing and just picking what they like and don't like. But the aim isn't to pick what you like but what seems true to you. And we have spiritual sensors, just the way we perceptually can kind of tell a real perception from a fake, an illusion. We can be mistaken, but there is an experiential difference between them, certainly between waking and dreaming. You mainly know the difference by the experiential feel of them and spirituality has that kind of quality also. You can tell this rings true, seems authentic, seems reality-based. This other thing seems somebody's making this up or it's very partial.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 27:52: Let me recast, in a slightly different frame, my earlier thoughts about chronology and the Jewish vocation of keeping the chronological segments the before and after in their linear place. My father's best…
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 28:19: Your father was a Jewish philosopher, a rabbi, although he stopped servicing a congregation. Go back from the practice of being a rabbi, but deeply Jewish.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 28:48: Yeah he certainly was, and my mother's father was. I used to jokingly call him the king of the Jews, but anyway. So there is a strength, more than a strength of strength. If I pick out for general applicability this chronological vocation of the Jews, it doesn't go back a million years, as far as Cro-Magnon and Homo sapien sapiens. It doesn't go back to the origin of the species, but it goes about as far back as recorded history goes, at least in the Western, non-cyclical sense of a progression in time. Had a saying, “purity,” I imitate his Russian accent, “purity is loyalty to origins.” So there's a kind of purity imperative, however far you go and however wide the net you cast, to take in the big picture, which is now accessible as it never has been before and even unavoidable as it never has been before, through all the media, the big picture of the cultures of the world and the many religious orientations of the world, experimental or ancient or traditional or, you know, novel. However far wide the net you cast, however far you journey, remember origins, remember why you started. Remember, if you change, why you change.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 30:48: Make it… life is a very educational trip. Learn and remember what you learned. Did you rush to judgment? Did you condemn too soon? Were you mesmerized or hypnotized, or, head over heels for something that finally misled you? Or misled you in one respect, but not in another? Keep in mind the journey, so that we're not just splashing around in a big swimming pool. We learn the lessons of our self, of our own flexibility. It's not for the sake of being limber, it's for the sake of living and learning, finding truth, it's for the sake of not lying to ourselves or others.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 31:48: And that doesn't mean you have to stay in your birth tradition. Maybe if you're Jewish you do because you're kind of born Jewish. That's a question for Jewish debate, you know. But in general you can be born well like me, born Southern Baptist, you might say. My grandmother's Pentecostal often went during my childhood to the Pentecostal church and I wouldn't think I need to be… wouldn't think I need to take super note of that or try to keep it to my heart anymore. I don't know how much of my personal sense of self it formed. I found the Pentecostal church kind of scary. For example, they would start speaking in tongues and rolling around on the aisle and I know, in just little Sunday school and talking about instead of nice little Jesus stories and so forth. Somehow the teacher would start tearing up and crying, tears would just flow down her cheeks and she was carrying on about, I knew not what, but it was kind of scary for a little bitty kid. Anyway, so I saw all those things. The one thing that did stick with me is the Baptist believed. Maybe they all believed, but anyway the Baptist believed.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 33:09: The state of your soul is the very most important thing, not how you're dressed, even though they paid a lot of attention to. Didn't Sister Susie look good in that white outfit Sunday? They would talk a lot like that. But they all knew that's not what really counts, it's the state of your soul. For some of them that meant, oh, whether you get into heaven. But it also just means intrinsic of intrinsic value of the state of your soul. That's the thing you've got.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 33:42: Well, I found beyond that, they didn't have theological teachings that made any sense to me. But when I got to college and took philosophy I found, ah, that's what Plato and Aristotle believed. I mean, that's exactly why Socrates ends up, you know, having to take the hemlock, because he thought this is not a bad fate, because I've taken care of my soul and that's what counts. And Aristotle developed the same point differently. And there's in general, with the great philosophers you can learn a lot about how one should manage the state of one's soul. And so I didn't. That's why I was so, why I was a happy agnostic. I was never feeling, oh, where is God? The world's meaningless. The world's not meaningless. If you read Plato, Aristotle, Spinoza, Kant, Hegel and so forth, it's not at all meaningless. It's just full of meaning. It's just meaning pouring over. But then God spoke to me. I thought, oh so there's something more than all of that. And well, there's something more is what I went on to explore after that.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 35:00:And so we each have our own story, and I guess one of the parts of you don't have to piece all you know… We like to understand the world. Aristotle says all people desire to know, and that's a fundamental human impulse. And generally, to know means to know what I was calling at the beginning of this discussion the big picture and the small pictures, and how they all fit into the big picture. However, the important thing to know is not to piece together some big scheme about how the world's religions relate or anything else. Any other big scheme is to find one's own place and what I sometimes just call one's calling. What are you called to do? What is your place? And I don't mean place in the sense of psychological identity or something like that, what you're comfortable with, but I use God's language when does God want me, where does God want you, and what does God want you to do today? Because it may be different from what God had you do yesterday, and tomorrow I may be sitting Kaddish for somebody, for all I know, you know it's a Jewish practice on an occasion of death. Who knows? But if that's what God wants me to do, I'll try to be there.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 36:28: Yeah, you, interestingly, for a trained philosopher and, earlier in your trajectory through life, an academic, a professor, among colleagues who are also professors, a professor of philosophy, you don't fling concepts around, you track them back down to their place of origin and their particular domain and that appetite for concreteness and spelling it out, not mystifying and not so specializing that the big picture becomes beneath your notice. You don't treat concepts that are outside your immediate field of attention as beneath your notice, especially if they have some potential for being true. That concreteness belongs to your origins and what I would say is your loyalty to origins. Of course you don't swallow everything whole that you don't buy anymore. You know that's growing up and widening your field of vision and field of operations. It's also an American thing to do. You don't have to do what your daddy did.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 38:19: Yeah, well, you use whatever to figure out your place and what you should be doing. You use your instincts, intuitions, memory. Of course, you also reason things out. Hey, this doesn't make sense for some reason, and you're operating in the real world after all, so you can't just say, oh well… I always hated that Frank Sinatra song I Gotta Be Me. What's so great about being Frank Sinatra? I didn't get it. No, the point isn't I gotta be me. I want to in some sense have a personal integrity and truthfulness to myself, but the aim is to get myself to be well, my best self, not just the lumpish self. I happen to be at the beginning of my reflections, but hopefully, by the end of prayer and meditation and whatever and talking with other people, I can be a somewhat better version of me and therefore fill my place in life better. You know more accurately and maybe effectively, but especially more accurately. Make sure I'm located where I should be, not following my ego or fears or something else.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 39:44: Yeah, the opening of horizons to the multiplicity of avenues between human beings and the divine, the transcendent, the sense-making ultimate of life, provider of values for life. The opening wide of that horizon can be breathtaking, can be stupefying If you want at the same time to know what your own history, your own intimations with regard to guidance from upstairs where that is supposed to take you, and at the same time get some kind of a sense-making picture of the big picture, you know where the different cultures have touched the transcendent so differently.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 41:01: And it might be that some of those data will be inimical and you'll just say I don't approve of that or I can't go there. That's so incompatible with me that I'll just drop it. But I guess there's some sort of sense that the sense-making energy of an individual wants to say what's true and what's false here, not just what works for me, but what's actually true, what's true of God, what's true of all people, though they may not want to emphasize this or that aspect, but it certainly widens the horizons, the sky overhead, and it's a big challenge to know in what order and in what respect and with what tools to take this in, if one feels that one is called to ask those questions or answer those questions?
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 42:24: Yeah, in some Facebook exchange someone was asking everybody what one advice, brief advice, you'd give to everybody, and mine was be truthful. And that means both truthful to reality, try to get at the truth. Truthful with oneself, which means a kind of honesty. You know that you're not deceiving yourself.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 42:49: Yes.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin 42:52: And that's pretty good advice. Well, maybe we'll stop there, because that's something one can remember. Be truthful. Well, thank you, sweetheart. I enjoyed seeing you again and I'll see you again in a moment when I come to your office in the real world. Love you. All right, bye-bye.
Dr. Abigail L. Rosenthal 43:13: Bye.
Scott Langdon 43:32: Thank you for listening to God: An Autobiography, The Podcast. Subscribe for free today wherever you listen to your podcasts and hear a new episode every week. You can hear the complete dramatic adaptation of God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher by Jerry L. Martin by beginning with episode one of our podcast and listening through its conclusion with Episode 44. You can read the original true story in the book from which this podcast is adapted, God: An Autobiography, As Told to a Philosopher, available now at amazon.com, and always at godanautobiography.com. Pick up your own copy today. If you have any questions about this or any other episode, please email us at questions@godanautobiography.com, and experience the world from God's perspective as it was told to a philosopher. This is Scott Langdon. I'll see you next time.