Can difficult people and chronic sinners reach God's love and divine help? Explore an intimate, loving relationship and evolution alongside God that goes beyond the lustful occasion and gets to the heart and meaning of life.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin, author of the true story and reporter of his communication with God, and host Scott Langdon discuss two letters from readers Sandra and Reubensis responding to God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher.
What is your story? We want to hear from you!
This conversation takes us outside tradition and opens the mind to spirituality beyond religion. Is God saying something through a neighbor or friend, or maybe in the silence, God is saying more than one expects?
-Share your story or experience with God-
BUY THE BOOK- God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher
LISTEN TO RELEVANT EPISODES- [What's On Your Mind] A Relationship With God; Spiritual Judgment; Encountering Divine Silence; Does God Exist | Praying For Proof
WATCH- God, What About Sin?
READ- I Will Be There
#whatsonyourmind, #godanautobiography, #experiencegod
God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher, is written by Dr. Jerry L. Martin, an agnostic philosopher who heard the voice of God and recorded their conversations.
The podcast began with the Dramatic Adaptation of the book and now has several series:
Scott Langdon [00:00:17] This is God: An Autobiography, The Podcast. A dramatic adaptation and continuing discussion of the book God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher by Jerry L. Martin. He was a lifelong agnostic, but one day he had an occasion to pray. To his vast surprise, God answered- in words. Being a philosopher, he had a lot of questions, and God had a lot to tell him. Episode 114.
Scott Langdon [00:01:09] Welcome to episode 114 of God: Autobiography, The Podcast. I'm Scott Langdon, your host. And today, I'm thrilled to introduce you to our latest episode of What's On Your Mind. In this our 12th edition of What's On Your Mind, Jerry and I discussed two emails received from two individuals who wrote in to share their stories of God with us. First, I read the email as it came in to us, and then Jerry shares his initial written response. Then Jerry and I talk about how we each see God working in and through these experiences with God. Join us as we explore these two wonderful stories of people encountering God and trying to articulate that experience. I hope you enjoy the episode.
Scott Langdon [00:02:02] Welcome back, everybody. This is What's On Your Mind, and the 12th time we're doing this. Jerry Martin, I'm really glad to talk to you once again for one of these great episodes.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:02:12] Yeah. I've enjoyed them so much. And each time, today is another example, that we find people writing their fascinating stories, sometimes with questions for us, sometimes just to share, but those are both endlessly fascinating. I think these two that we have today are like that because they also came in kind of back to back, and there's a similarity between them in that one describes herself as a very difficult person and the other describes himself as a chronic sinner. So each starts with a kind of self characterization that isn't very favorable, and yet they both have very interesting things to say to us.
Scott Langdon [00:02:53] Yeah. When we were preparing for this, I noticed that the last time we did a What's On Your Mind it was also two different emails, and it seems the past few times things have been coming in pairs or groups. You know, they seem to come back to back and sort of almost have a similar theme to them in either their question or their response to something, but it's an experience that they want to share with us.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:03:22] In some ways, these two difficult people who are sinners, you might say, have very different stories. Very different stories, attitudes, personalities, spiritual lives, and that's part of what's fascinating.
Scott Langdon [00:03:37] Yes. And they each talk about and describe and ask questions about their relationship to God and with God and what God's role is in that relationship. It's interesting because to pair these up, what was fascinating was coming from a place, each of them of a self-perception. So, Sandra, the first email we'll talk about today, she calls herself a very difficult person and knows it. She goes, that's kind of me and that's how we are, and what I think is really interesting and maybe more important, I don't know, is that she knows that God knows that.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:04:20] That's right. She says God knows me well. He knows I'm a very difficult person.
Scott Langdon [00:04:26] And so based on that, like, hey, you know, everybody, we all know the players here and we all know, you know, take a look in your program, here's what we've got. We've got Sandra, who's a very difficult person and we've got God over here, and God knows that. Everybody knows your players, so here we go. And Sandra tells the story of how she and God deal with a situation together, and she feels pretty comfortable in her role.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:04:51] Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Langdon [00:04:53] Sandra writes into us and she says this:.
Sandra's Letter [00:04:54] I feel He finds me a very difficult person. I also feel that He knows that my intentions are good, although at times I get very angry and don’t apologize for what I say or do. On the flip side of the coin, He knows who I am. He knew it right from the beginning. My experience with God is this, the help and persistence and stamina that He sent to me when dealing with Bank of America over almost losing our home due to their error was phenomenal. I kept getting messages about David slaying Goliath. So this Italian woman got stronger and stronger, I was led to a great attorney, last name of Abdullah, meaning in Arabic servant of God. Funny huh,not a christian, he helped me with the language of law, and how to present things he helped me on an as needed basis and the fees were not expensive. God helped me get right into the office of Brian Moynihan CEO of BofA I emailed his office with a letter basically telling him of what his bank has done, I was not nice, and reminded him of how BofA actually started, I sent the same letter over and over and bombed up his email, 3 days later I got a call from his office. 3 a very magic number. From then on the situation here with my home was getting taken care of. I won this battle, Goliath was taken down with an apology, a better rate, and a new modification contract that my lawyer Mr. Abdullah said was great, because before I signed anything he needed to see it. Then Mr. Abdullah said, I don’t know how you did this, this very rarely happens, but I am very proud of you. That is how God worked with me, I still think he needs to go out for a smoke break once in awhile in his dealings with me, LOL, I do get really angry at Him still at times, but I know I do bring up some very valid points. Again, he knows I am difficult. LOL
Scott Langdon [00:07:00] Laughing out loud there. And that's Sandra.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:07:03] Yeah. Isn't that a wonderful communication? And I wrote back at the time, I have some further thoughts today, but I wrote back at the time, just a following brief note: "We are all difficult, Sandra, lol. But that need not stop us from working with God as best we can, just as you did here. And, at the end of it all, it was Goliath, not you, who was flat on the ground. Be well.” I just left it there, but I have further thoughts right away just reading this again. One is she-- this is a really honest relationship with God. You know, we're sort of tempted to try to make it, even though it doesn't make sense at all, to try to present God a better version of ourselves than we quite live up to, that's more pious or more honest, or more whatever it might be. As having fewer vices and weaknesses than we have in our lives. So there's this temptation to try to put the best face on ourselves. But Sandra just says, okay, I'm difficult, I get angry, I don't apologize. I obviously probably should, but I don't, and she's honest- I make some very valid points. One of the best-- I think one of the keys to relating to God is to be who you are and to be honest. If you're angry at God. I mean, prayer, you know, you can think of prayer as being many things, but one is just to let God know what's on your mind and how you're feeling and how things are for you. And if everything's going down the drain, like the bank has made this horrible mistake and it's going to cause you to lose your mortgage and your house and everything. Well, let God know that you're upset about that and and you pray for whatever help can come your way. And the help, I found also interesting, It's not magical help, you know. It's not miracles. It's not that God zaps something down. God says somewhere in God: An Autobiography, "I'm not the kind of rescue helicopter, you know, I just land in a situation and okay, the cavalry have arrived or the medics." Medics have arrived or something. That's not what God's doing. And I think she quite rightly says what did God do for me? God helped give me the personal strength, the help and persistence and stamina. So, you know, had she been alone, this would have been a very hard thing to cope with. One person, the bank, which is huge and you're a little and they've got your mortgage and your house is completely vulnerable to a teacher to do things with to you. So what do you need? Well, you need a kind of persistence to go in there, to hold your position, and you need the stamina to go through it and stick to it to the end. You know, there is often a saying in Washington, D.C. is persistence is power. Well, that's often the case. You just persist, persist, persist, and then maybe you will get there. And that's what God gives her. Sustains her in that effort, sustains her strength. And then one other thing struck me. You know, she's obviously a Christian, Italian, perhaps a Catholic. You know, the attorney, she goes who turns out to be just great. It's Abdullah. A Muslim, one assumes. But what does this name mean? It means servant of God. And her God is helping sustain her in this very difficult battle. Who knows how she picked Abdullah. But maybe God, you know, helped steer her. And Abdullah, servant of God, helped her. God's helping her. Abdullah is helping her. And it's always important to remember as devoted as one may be to one's own faith and tradition and so forth, that God is bigger than that. And that God is working through many, many, many people. And in fact, when at the end. Mr. Abdullah is so very, very pleased. Goliath is on the floor. She's standing. Sandra is standing. And Mr. Abdullah says, "I am very proud of you." And I would take you know, I often talk about the voice of God may be something your neighbor says to you one day. It may be something a good friend says to you. Well, this may be God speaking through Mr. Abdullah. You know who sounds like a very faithful kind of guy and probably open to being a conduit of the divine without, of course, being self-conscious of it that way. But sometimes the encouraging words that we get in life that we need at that moment, like, I'm very proud of you, this kind of final judgment, well, that's a divine input, too. I would guess. You never know for sure, but that's what I would guess, that God is very proud of her. He helped her have stamina. But it ends up I always feel we have to do the heavy lifting. God can inspire us, help us, direct us, you know, give us strength that's beyond what our strength would normally be. Help us persevere. But we're the ones having to persevere. And the ball is in our hands. And Sandra is just a wonderful example of that.
Scott Langdon [00:12:59] She is very much so, and to recognize it in that way, I think is really unique and a wonderful way to see it. I mean, she in a sense, is saying, the way I kind of hear it, is she saying, "I have faults. But at the same time I want to move in the direction of God. Which, you know, God's will, or be, as we have talked about before, being in tune with God. That kind of talk, that kind of idea is something that it seems like Sandra already has in mind as a way that she lives her life. When I think of this particular email, it reminds me of an episode of the podcast that I keep coming back to, I find time and again, and it was a pivotal one for me, which is the one where you talk to God about Neale Donald Walsch and Conversations with God, his book, which is a series of books now. And how God was just, "Yeah, I did talk to him. He pretty much got these things right." And it was just this argument back and forth of yeah, but he says this, and God's like, "Yeah, well, you don't know the whole story." Yeah, but God, if he says this, then this is how it's got to be. And if You said that, then this is how it's got to be. And it's like the two of you were wrestling. And when we were putting that episode together, as I've told this story before, a little bit on other episodes, that as an actor playing that role of you in that episode, really that changed everything for me. It really freed me and I think God helped me not only learn how to tackle that episode in terms of creating and being an actor, but also in my life, like really confronting the idea of if we're going to be here in this seemingly separate state, so in us and a God, you know, then there is going to be this friction, there is going to be this tension. And we might as well at least sort of lean into at least the idea that it's there. Now, what do we do with it? You know, if I have to argue with God and I'm going to fight with God, well, how do I do that in a way that is at the same time surrendering versus you know, a conflict. Because a lot of my life has been about, you know, yeah, I feel like you want this, but I'm going to do this anyway. And we keep seeing and I think people see it in their lives, I know I do. Every time I make one of those turns, things don't go well. Kind of turn back. All right, well, you want this, but I kind of want that. And then you dart off, I dart off and it doesn't go well, and I come back. Okay, fine. What do you want? And then it just turns out to be what God's message was to you about Neale Donald Walsch. No. You really do get what you want when you finally realize what you want and what I want are the same. And that is that in tune in touch place that we were just talking about.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:15:58] Yeah. That's exactly right. That's amazing your experience there, Scott. And the thing about the tension, you know, I'm arguing with God there. I argue with God a lot in the book. And I often think, in fact, I don't think it's like a marriage where you do have tension. You argue, you sometimes get angry, and at the same time, there's that yielding element. You're yielding to your love for the other person, for your wife. And it makes me remember a friend of mine who was a psychologist and he and his wife did a lot of clinical work with marriage counseling. He said to me one day, "Conflict is the cutting edge of a relationship," as if that's where it's like muscles. You tear them apart so they can grow back stronger. And it's like those are the moments of tearing it apart. And with any good friend where you have disagreements, exploring the disagreements can be part of the growth experience of the two of you over, you know, anything. It doesn't matter what it is, but you're being honest with each other. You have a difference. And by talking, you come to at least some better understanding of the difference. You may even resolve it, but at least you then understand it. Oh, okay. I think he or she understands now where I'm coming from. They understand. I understand where they're coming from. They understand where I'm coming from. And that's a productive relationship. At the same time, then it's got to be within the context of a kind of yielding love.
Scott Langdon [00:17:43] Sandra talks about in the very end here, she says, "I really do get angry at him at times, but I know that I bring up some valid points."
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:17:55] Yeah.
Scott Langdon [00:17:56] And I have had some especially since in a more dynamic way, I think, since making that episode that we just talked about, I have been present to when I have a disagreement with what I think God is asking me to do or leading me toward that I just don't think is-- And I look at myself and I just try to examine myself and say, Is this you being lazy or is this really something that you just don't know about or whatever?" And I have some relationships in my life that aren't the way I feel like I would like them to be. And so in a sense, I feel like I'm having a discussion with God in a similar way that you talk to God about the Neale Donald Walsch Which is, "Yeah, but if there's this, then that, and this and that." And so I might say to God, "Well, God, if I were doing your will and if things were going well, then wouldn't this relationship be the way I want it to be? And since it's not, maybe I'm not doing the right thing, so show me how to do the right thing so that I can have my relationship that I want be the way I want it." And like God explained to you about Neale Donald Walsch's position on God will give you whatever you want, along those same lines, God might say to me, "Well, how do you know that the right thing for everyone is for you to have that relationship be the way you want it to be? What you really want is my will, right?" Well, yeah, of course. "All right, then, this is something you have to bear right now." Okay. And so there's that kind of turn. It's this: Why not? Why not? And eventually will melt into this. Yeah. Okay.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:19:42] There's a process there, too, I think, when you think, well, this isn't the way I want it to go. And the way I want it to go seems like a really good way. It's not the hard way. It's a really good way to have a better relationship, a more fruitful, loving, successful, satisfying relationship. And why am I not getting that, even though I'm trying to be faithful and trying to do things right? There can be the moment where you say well, suppose there's something else going on here? There's some other element to the picture that I'm not recognizing. Suppose God has this-- some other kind of thing in mind and that, you know, you don't know. You can't read the mind of God or anything, but it can be a creative process to start to get perspective. To start thinking is there a different way to look at this? Is there a different approach better, or is it something that not every problem needs to be fixed in life? You know, some just go on, you know, and or is it one of those? Anyway, you can use that frustration also as a moment for exploring further questioning and exploring and trying to get some larger perspective. Or think about it this way, think about it some other way and just see if you get any light on it. Or if it's just something, there's that, what do they call it, Serenity Prayer. It may be one of the things you change. You change what you can change. You can change your own behavior. That's all you have control over. And there are things you can't change. And then there's that point at which all those. It might seem like 99% of what's going on in your life and around you is stuff you can't change. So you're going to have to accept an awful lot as just, okay, that's how it is. And it may be one of those moments where I'm angry because I don't see why it has to be that way, you know, why can't I fix it? Nevertheless, you might at the same time have to say, "Well, since I can't fix it, I've tried each thing I can think of and you always pray is there some other thing I can do?" Maybe a year from now there's something else you can do. But meanwhile, you need to live with it with a kind of loving peace and just kind of accept things in a sort of realistic way.
Scott Langdon [00:23:10] Reubensis calls himself a chronic sinner straight off the bat in this email, and he is wondering about whether or not there's even a possibility of him experiencing God or having having a relationship with God because of the fact that he is a chronic sinner. I found this one to be really fascinating.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:23:36] Yes, there is a lot of chronic sinners, right?
Scott Langdon [00:23:38] Right. I don't know who isn't. Honestly.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:23:41] We've all had these moments. I'm too bad to be to be helped. Yeah. So Reubensis is in an interesting situation that he shares with us.
Scott Langdon [00:23:54] Reubensis writes this:.
Reubensis' Letter [00:23:56] A chronic sinner though I am, is it possible for me to experience God? To surrender my whole being to Him, I want to be a blazing fire for God. Sir, how can I achieve this, please assist me less I wallow away in sin but one thing that gives me strongest of heart is that my soul was not created by Satan and can never get to him. I solely really on your good advice for I feel His Presence in me but don’t know how to turn it on.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:24:32] You know, isn't that a fascinating communication? And since he asked for my, quote, good advice, I certainly give it to him. This is much longer, maybe about the longest response I've made to anyone, but he asked for it. So here it is. And I say to Reubensis: “To your first question, the answer is definitely Yes. Later in the book, I am told, “In a sense, it is only sinners I love.” To feel the Divine Presence may be simpler than you think. You do not need a superhuman leap into pure holiness. The key is to focus on what God wants for you in particular. When I get impatient I am told, “Remember, your only job is to do each day what I want you to do, even if it is just to sit there.” He may want you just to rest quietly in His Presence. How do you do that? The first step is to stop worrying about being a sinner. Don’t worry about your past — that just makes it harder to turn to God. Look forward, not backward. Just relax and put your self-concerns (am I too big a sinner? how can I become a blazing fire?) aside. Just try to still your mind and heart. Take one small step. One day I decided to have lunch with God, the sort of lunch where the two of you just enjoy each other’s company without having to talk. When you pray, still your feelings, pray quietly, and ask yourself, if God had something to tell me today, what would it be? At first, it won’t seem different from just you thinking and play-acting God’s side of the conversation. Trust that, once you get the clutter out of the way, God will be able to lead your thoughts in a fruitful direction. You will be standing in the divine light, whether you know it or not. Eventually, you will be able to sense His Presence, perhaps only faintly and uncertainly, but He is there. Please keep me posted about how you are doing."
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:27:14] Well, my further thought, that's awfully long for me to keep on talking, but I'll share this because it was my reaction when I read this again. And I didn't want to put it this way to Reubensis, who I'm trying to guide along as best I can. But he's almost the opposite of Sandra. Sandra is so realistic and unmagical. She's relating to God in real life, trying to do the bank and getting a good attorney, and the attorney is proud of her and so forth. And she knows she's difficult and gets angry, but she stays right in relation with God and accepts that God knows the kind of person she is. Okay. I'm difficult and I get angry and I don't apologize, but God knows that. He's always known it. But here we are together, and He's getting me through these difficult situations. Whereas Reubensis is a person who thinks in terms of extremes. I'm a chronic sinner. As if I'm a kind of hopeless sinner. Can I even experience God? Am I too far down and, at the same time, you'll look at his aspirations. There are kind of unsound extreme in the opposite direction. He won't be satisfied with being anything less than a blazing fire for God. Well, first find out, is that what God wants you to be? God might want you to get the loan renegotiated. It could be taking your kids for a picnic. You know, who knows what God might want you to do? But it's not necessary to be a blazing fire and you first need to get back to just establishing a good, quiet, solid relationship with God where you can feel you're sharing things and you're listening as best you can. And I then suggest this little exercise. You just pray and you try to think to yourself, what would God want me to be doing today? You know, get it down to the you know, this morning. What would God want me to do in the next 3 hours and just get it down to human size and then see what comes to you. And there may be divine input in that. You won't know. It'll seem like just thinking, but it's thinking in a new mode because it's thinking in the wake of praying for God to lead you. And if you're doing that and you're kind of open to being led and you're not yourself unilaterally either deciding whether you're a chronic sinner. You remember at one point when I was got the divine assignment in that prayer, I object that I'm not worthy. This seemed like a tall order. I'm not worthy. And God replies, "I'll decide who's worthy." So here, Reubensis thinks he can decide who's worthy and that he's not and that he's a chronic sinner. Well we're all chronic sinners. So, you know, this is not very sound thinking on his part, but that's not his job. His job isn't to go condemn himself. That's not a useful exercise. If he did something wrong in God: An Autobiography, I'm told, if you do something wrong, don't wallow in guilt. Just stop doing it. Like, if you drink too much or you cheated cards or at golf or something stop doing that. But don't go round- oh, I'm the worst center in the world. I'm the worst, worst, worst. That's hopeless. That cuts you off from God, that creates a distance from God. Just say, "Okay, I did a wrong thing. I'm trying to figure out why I did it. You know why am I even playing cards for money? You know, is this an addiction? How can I prevent-- break the addiction if that's the pattern? So you try to solve the problem, correct the problem. You ask for divine help in doing that, as Sandra did, to get the stamina and persistence and so forth. And then it's not your job to decide what it is God wants you to do. It's not your job either to label yourself or pronounce judgment on yourself. It's not your job. It's an arrogance. You know, you're arrogating God's responsibilities to yourself. And it's not your job to decide what kind of blazing fire, if it's a blazing fire at all, it maybe a warm hearth for God, that you need to be creating those. But a prayerful life will help you figure that out.
Scott Langdon [00:32:35] Talking about marriage and relationships and how our relationship with God can be talked about in that way. And in many religious traditions, it is talked about that way. That which is more than us being a lover, wll of those kinds of that kind of imagery. Which is really us talking about these matters in a way that seems to be most important to all of us. Like, how does it feel deeply within when someone you believe you love is in a relationship with you? So probably the most intimate relationship like that would be a spouse or a lover. So the language is apt and fruitful to talk about it in that way. These two emails. Sandra, it seems like she would be in a long term marriage with God, as we mentioned. It seems like like a marriage. Right. And here they are. And you know how I am. And sometimes we fight, but I make good points, you know, so she's in that kind of relationship. And it seems like Reubensis is in this I know this person is out here, maybe a potential wife or something, but I don't know if I can talk to her or him. You know, I don't they're not in this relationship quite yet. And the funny thing about all of this for me is when we talk about separate and same like we do, you know, because we are here in a limited manifestation, as each one of our persons, me as Scott, you as Jerry, and Reubensis as Reubensis, this limited actualization of God makes it necessary now for us to talk about God and to God as if God were other. At the same time God is within. So this idea of can I have a relationship with that which is me, which is within me, is difficult to understand and to comprehend. Because we always think about other. So God is, oh, God's out there away from me. The reality is that as God is also other, God is also within. And so I heard a spiritual teacher say something that just blew my mind when he said, "You are the experience God is having." Which informs a lot of my work and thought process about the actor and God playing us individually in those roles, which we've talked about some before. So when I see Reubensis asking can I, how does he put it, is it possible for me to experience God? I would say to Reubensis you always are. You are that experience. You are already in a relationship that you may not know about. It doesn't matter if you know about it. You already are. That's the same part. Now let's deal with the separate part, which is am I in a relationship with God? Okay. Not quite yet. Because you're not perhaps looking in the right place with and we've talked about this on other episodes, I have a concern or a question or something that I want, and here is the answer the way I want to hear it. And here is how life will work out in my mind. If you come through for me, it'll look like this. We have these preconceived notions. Instead of, Hey, God, what's next? And so faith would be taking the steps. But as you point out, you have to take the steps.
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:36:09] Yeah.
Scott Langdon [00:36:10] Yeah. The ironic thing is, or the difficult thing is that you're always taking steps. The question is, which direction are you walking in?
Dr. Jerry L. Martin [00:36:17] I think that's a good point. Yeah. Your relationship with God isn't something that happens occasionally, you know, on Sundays or something. Or when you engage even in prayer, it's happening all the time. And in a sense, you might say you're always either in sync with God or in dissonance with God, you know, out of sync with God. And when you're out of sync, you're kind of moving further apart. You know, you're actualizing the divine less when you're out of sync, obsessed with your own ego needs and passions and self-doubts and worries. You know, you're talking about that in relationships, love, relationships. And I can remember cases where I knew there was one guy I knew who was not very good at relationships was a little clunky. And when he fell for someone he way over did it and just scared her out of her wits, you know, in sending her powers, and they had been out for a date or two. And I've heard women talk about that. One of the worst things that can happen to a woman if some guy gets obsessively in love with you and then it gets kind of scary, you know. And there can be a spiritual version of that syndrome. And I guess this blazing fire language I saw is a danger signal that, no. If you go on your second date, and the guy says, "I have a blazing fire for you." What? You barely know me. So get to know God it's a process, and one gets more comfortable by living it out. By living it out and going through all these steps both the bold and the lustful.
Scott Langdon [00:38:50] Thank you for listening to God: An Autobiography, The Podcast. Subscribe for free today wherever you listen to your podcasts and hear a new episode every week. You can hear the complete dramatic adaptation of God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher by Jerry L. Martin, by beginning with episode one of our podcast and listening through its conclusion with Episode 44. You can read the original true story in the book from which this podcast is adapted. God: An Autobiography, As Told To A Philosopher, available now at Amazon.com, and always at godanautobiography.com. Pick up your own copy today. If you have any questions about this or any other episode, please email us at firstname.lastname@example.org and experience the world from God's perspective as it was told to a philosopher. This is Scott Langdon. I'll see you next time.